The beast has left the building...

I guess I'm just a chatty Kathy.

I help organize a lot of outings, camping trips, trail days, Biergarten meetups, and parking lot parties in Wisconsin. So, I post a lot in the event threads.

 

@Thatbassguy Used to do a lot of fishing in Dyckesville,WI....that whitefish is awesome out there

 

I appreciate the thread CB! My dad and nephew (22 years old) both have Tesla's, Model Y. They both love them. Similar to your experience with your 4R, I rarely use 4WD (maybe 3 times a year in the past three years), I love the space and utility of it, perhaps a Highlander would have been better for me? I'm fortunate enough to have been working from home since March 2020, so the gas thing with the 4R isn't too bad. Anyhow, I can see myself entertaining a Hybrid vehicle down the line.

Please keep us updated as time goes on.

 

Nice! That's actually an area I haven't really visited. A bunch of us were up in Bayfield 2 weeks ago, and we had whitefish livers at a place called Greunke's. I highly recommend it if you ever find yourself up that way!

 

I was thinking the same thing. I was thinking about the 2.5 non turbo hybrid Highlander. It is very hard to get out of the don't care driving habit of 4Runner even on city driving not slowing down for speed bumps, crossing roads with dips, entering drive ways without slowing down, etc.. Since I don't clean in front of my garage in winter time and hybrid Highlander not having a good AWD system it would be little tough here for me as well (I'm an island boy, so I just clean the walk way and run in to the house). If I go hybrid Highlander route I don't think it would be easy for me to sell the wheels and buy 18in wheels from lower trims. So gave up that plan. Just high level point from me, hope people don't find them thinking I hate that vehicle.


Edit -
I also thought about Toyota Venza since its little better than Highlander even though its smaller. But just about same ground clearance.


Poll -
I picked no mostly because of me & my wifes don't care driving style which we would most likely damage a Tesla. But then I thought about other's something like R1s (the suv version) or the Hummer EV suv version would be good for our driving style. I'm sure EV range would improve very soon. Now I'm thinking my answer would be not strictly "No" it would be "Maybe".

 

Might also be cool to add a “maybe” to the current poll. Or a “Yes, once range and charging improve”.

I for one can’t really say “yes” or “no” to the current question. But I could answer one of these other questions.

Just a thought.

 

done

 

@kmeeg LOL awesome

 

They are slotted for a COMPLETELY different segment of use. You bought the 4R by mistake and it was not suited for your use.

 

I would buy a EV once the battery performance is improved….but in no way would I trade a 4R.

 

@2ndGen22re
I would not say by mistake. The very initial must have was to be reliable. I wanted something that can go on some trails, can tow a small popup camper, something I can sleep in.
After my 2019 Ram 1500 turned out to be a total turd, I was done with domestics. We have a '14 Corolla that still is running strong, so we went that route.
I was keen on a Tundra, but the 13mpg in town killed it right away. Then I looked at the Taco, the V6 3.5 was decent and cheaper than the 4R. The woman really wanted the 4R, so we went with that in the end, thinking we will keep it for many years to come. Gas was decent at that time and before that, around 4$/gal or even less - since there will be questions about this.

The 4R showed me what I was not, more than what I am. I am not a true, dedicated off-road individual, and there is no shame in that. At least not with my new DD. I did take it off-road, more off-road than many of the well-done-to-the-gills 4Rs on this forum (some 1200 miles north from where i am, roughly Toronto to Miami, but north of Toronto). It did absolutely all I threw at the beast and even more. It never hesitated one bit in dirt, water, gravel, heavy inclines and all. But i felt bad when the battle scars didn't wash away once we were home. It is not a cheap car, feels nasty ruining such a nice baby. Maybe others dont care, sure, you do you, i'll do me. I admitted an ATV is more fun for me, for how much I go places like this.
We slept in it weekend after weekend, and it was excellent. We loved it. We only got the trailer cause we no longer fit in it once we got the 2nd dog, and the woman has some back pain.
It pulled the popup trailer without a sweat, I would forget at times it was even back there. Slightly longer brake distance, no sway unless super windy. A bit more suspension play going over bumps and all, all expected and normal behavior.
Then gas went up and then higher and higher. From 60 cents/liter in 2020 to $2.14/liter (3.78l to the gallon), things started to cost more and more. When we put the money together in March, we were around $8/gal and one day I said f$#ck it and walked into the new sales center and put an order on. We were looking at the 4R paid in full already and close to $40.000 in gas in the next 6 years. I consider that to be a waste.
So I would not say mistake, I used it for what it was built, but not to the extent other use it. Like them lifted trucks or done Jeeps that never see more than a patch of grass at the picnic.
Now, is Tesla going to work for us? We don't know, never had one before. Will this turn out to be a mistake for our lifestyle? We will see by next summer, after a grueling winter. We do lots of road trips, we go camping often, including in the winter. We are pretty outdoorsy and we could cover the extra cost of the EV via the savings in gas.
We do miss the back space in the 4Runner, it is not as wide and not as tall, the larger dog fits in, but not too much space to spare on the top. We miss the ride height and the feeling of "tank".

I slow down for driveways and potholes now, something I didn't do before. This winter is announced to be something we haven't had in decades, cold and snow and they don't really clean same day around my area.
Last winter on our way to Costco. Will Tesla do this? Hell no, this is 4Runner only territory:

 

yay, i made it, i'm a big boy now, 1000 posts.

 

Food for thought…..would you buy a 10yr old EV? My research shows a minimum of $7k for the standard battery and $11k for the LR not including labor for the Model 3.
BTW, I am not putting down anyone for their choice. Just applying logic to the comparison of EV to a 4R. There is more to it than just mileage, like resale value.

 

@2ndGen22re
Most probably not. By the same account, I haven't purchased a second hand car since 2006. Money is tight and I must drive to work and get back on my feet ? Well, a man's gotta do what man's gotta do, right?
I purchased a brand new 4R too.
There is no real market as of today for a 10 years old EV, full EV. In the next 3-5 years, there will be a lot more examples. We will both find out then, LOL

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVI85O0bRfY

 

Another good and thoughtful post, CB. It’s been a pleasure reading your comments on this thread. I also applaud your patience — ya got more than I do.

The video had me thinking about the Tesla vs 4R in those kinds of conditions. It might be worth reminders for the doubters about what really matters in either snow or off road:

1. Tires
2. Ground clearance
3. A system for distributing torque between the four wheels

As should be obvious, there’s no reason an EV can’t match an ICE on the first two. Indeed, ground clearance can be better on an EV because there are far fewer mechanicals — driveshaft, exhaust, oil pans etc — down below. EVs often have a very flat and armored underbelly.

What may be less obvious (to some) is that EVs are inherently more capable when it comes to #3. The ability to have separate motors on the front and rear axles, or on each of the four wheels, is a huuuge boon for 4 wheeling. No mechanical 4WD system will ever be able to react and adjust as quickly or as precisely as a system based on electric motors.

This is why I’ve remarked elsewhere on the forum that it won’t be that many years before EVs become the no-brainer choice. They’re simply going to meet consumer needs better than ICE in a very large majority of use cases.

They’ll never be better than ICE in every single way (I’ll miss those engine and exhaust sounds!). But they will be better in most of the ways that matter to most people most of the time — and that definitely includes off roaders.

 

@Singleminded
I heard rumors that Rivian is a total beast in offroading. In 1-2 years, GMC and Chevy trucks will be out. More and more SUVs will be 2 or 4 motors drive. At that moment, it will be a question of software, they are all direct drive.
I haven't gotten a chance yet to drive it on snow/ice to see how it is, but I am getting winter tires 100%. Them 19"s are not cheap.
All these electric trucks and SUVs are going to give the 4R and Jeeps a run for their money.
I will actually google to see if anybody got the new F150 lightning offroad yet.

 

I agree with you on this point. That is my big fear, I am not a new car buyer, I'd rather buy something 5 years or older. But when it comes to EV's, I'm not going to buy something with half or more than half of its useful life already depleted.

Hopefully by that time they'll come up with a better battery solution, technology is moving fast. Back in the day with internal combustion, you were lucky if you got 50 or 60,000 miles out of something, that's barely four or five years worth of driving. My grandfather told me back in the day you'd have to replace your
car every 4 or 5 years because they would just rust out and fall to pieces.

I'm not going to presume what the OP will do, but somebody in his case buying new can pay it off, and move on to the next one in 5 years. As a Tesla it will probably still have decent resale, they are quite popular and will probably remain so. A Hyundai or Ford EV, probably not so much, so one just needs to be smart when they buy initially.

I'm starting to think that leasing will be the way to go. Granted that's not for everybody, but when they have a shorter shelf life, I can see situations where you lease the car for the first 3 years or whatever, turn it back in, they refurb it, and then sell or lease it to the next person. Granted this is not apples to apples, but that's what we do with our forklifts at work. We buy the refurb ones that come with the new paint job and a new battery, and we've gotten going on 10 years worth of trouble-free service with them.

I'm not going to stress about it yet, we probably still have a good decade to go before they're really widespread. But like I said though, I'm just worried about having to shell out a year's salary on a vehicle, which is an insane thing to have to do.

 

I've watched a few YT videos of Rivians in action, they are very impressive off-road. And as far as water, one of them drove through water in Florida that was over the hood, and then had to tow out a built Jeep XJ that got stuck in the same puddle.

Another channel took a few of them over one of the mountain passes in Colorado, maybe not Black Bear but something similar. They did use a good amount of juice going up, but using regenerative braking on the way down, they actually restored the power level to near what it was when they started.

TFL Truck briefly owned a Lightning and did a little bit of off-road testing with it, they also did a series where they drove it to Alaska via the Dalton highway.

 

I like water when I'm thirsty and coffee when I wake up.

One isn't better than the other.

They serve different purposes and tastes.

 

@Trail Runnah
Oh yes, thanks for that. I used to be all over TFL truck when I had my Rams. They are pretty cool.

 

You make coffee with water
I drink coffee to stay up at night if needed. They go hand in hand in different situations

 

At this point, I don’t plan to, started to get spoiled with the new vehicles. However, my son has discussed picking up a used Prius and replacing the battery. He had done a ton of research last year, but we convinced him to not spend the money, as he headed off to college this year.

I looked for what it would cost to replace the rav4 prime battery, which is what we have. I would not go full electric yet, unless it was an extra vehicle. We have gone months with putting fuel in the Rav4 prime, what an awesome feeling. But when we travel, it’s gas and go.
I bought my 4Runner before things change, this way I’ll have time for stuff to get worked out before I need to replace due to the vehicle being old.

so let me ask you this, how many 8 to 10 year old vehicles that have 150k miles on them would you buy?

Toyota has great resale value, but let’s not forget the Toyota tax to get one. I can also talk about my first Toyota truck, that yota bought back because the frame was no longer safe. It worked out great for me, as the extra money they gave me, allowed me to buy a new Tacoma with a used vehicle sized loan.

I have a 2011 Subaru sitting in my drive way with 98k on it, and I can see that it’s going to take a lot of maintenance money to keep it going.

 

I bought my Cummins with 100k and it had a bent front axle. A rich rancher bought it brand new for his daughter, a completely loaded 4wd Laramie but she let her boyfriend JUMP it at Pismo! Other than the tacoed axle it was pristine, garage kept and daddy had it dealer serviced regularly. I got it dirt cheap and put $3.5K into replacing and upgrading the entire front end. You know what they say about Dodge Cummins? It’s the best hotdog you’ve ever had in a moldy bun. Unbelievable engine with a dodge body.
It is the only vehicle I have ever had I would keep over my 4Runners.
Prior to the new 4Runner we had 2016 CRV, it was a very good car but..but boring. So I sold a 32mpg car to buy a 20mpg 4R.
Why? We are seniors and don’t need a commute car and have reached a point in our lives of “You can’t take it with you” after pinching pennies our whole lives.
We like Toyotas we decided to treat ourselves with a nice new loaded AG ORP, it is a mall crawling garage Queen. We have had it over 4 months and only 1,600 miles on it. So actually we really don’t have a dog in this mpg/EV fight. We take the Dodge/travel trailer on trips and I use Goldie for my local errands. The only time the new one comes out of the garage is when my wife comes along(she is unable to drive anymore). I think in the future the 5th gens will be thought of like the FJ40 is now. I’ll probably keep Goldie for a few more years and give it to one of my boys, after all I did bring them both home from the hospital in it. It is an adopted member of the family.
To make a short story long, I personally think it is a bit early in the EV game to invest $50k into a vehicle that will need another ~10 grand thrown at it in just 10 years. A hybrid is the way to go for now if I was commuting.
If possible I would look for a cherry 4 cylinder 1st gen Tacoma for your kid, very hard to find though.

 

@2ndGen22re
Different strokes for different folks.
First of all, this thread is no a fight. Some might want to make it that, but it is not. It's about my choices after the 4Runner and what I cannot do anymore after owning one for 2 years. The discussion went sideways lots, but the thread is still here, surprisingly. I am also interested in other people's opinion on what's next on their plate. It seems plenty here want to learn more about my experience as well. Not like this is my 5th EV.
Second: hybrids need batteries too. As a matter of fact, they are worse than both gas and EVs. They try to incorporate both technologies. Imagine how complicated that thing is. Heavy. Impossible to work on. I would get a gas engine and be done with it.
That 3500 is sweet, if you have a need for it. As a daily driver is just a waste. No matter what planet you are from, a Cummins 3500 is totally overkill. My 3 Rams were all crap. The Hemi had issues, the V6 has issues, the older hemi with the v6 was making weird noises.....
Anyway - in the past 22 years I had 16 cars. I stopped buying them used back in 2008. All my used cars had issues, mechanical, electric and the nicest one of them all, when the odometer on my Roadmaster rolled from 199.999, it went straight to 300.000; you could see the screwdriver scratches on the numbers. After that, no more. There is an issue? Straight at the dealer, fix it. The longest car I ever had was a Chevy cobalt, 2 door. I put 100.000 miles in 2 years and a half. Never had an issue. I owned all types of vehicles, minus a van. One CVT, never again, LOL.
Why would I start buying used now? The price of used cars is more than brand new, its been like this for what? 2 years now ?
Third: there is a very big possibility I am going back to work full time in the office. We will need to buy another car. It will definitely be gas. We are thinking a Rav4, not the prime and not the hybrid.

I do not have any updates just yet besides my 1.75 cents a mile compared to the tank. I just top it off every night, I have a full tank every day.
The idea of the thread was that I chose to move away from gasoline, even though I can afford it. I felt robbed every morning. And raped. Some days, even without the Vaseline.
Give me a 4Runner with the mpg of a Rav4 and I would have never gotten the EV.

 

You should hang onto your 4R as long as possible but I’m not in your shoes. Leasing might be a good short term solution and you get to see what the future brings. I just got through reading that vehicle repossessions have doubled among prime borrowers. I think some folks got in over their heads and with the current inflation they have to default so there should be a lot of good nearly new used vehicles out there soon to swoop on for a good price.
I’m lucky….sort of….being a senior(closer to the grave) and retired and financially secure. We could’ve bought a hybrid or a EV this last summer rather than a 4R but we just “wanted” it, the wife fell in love with the AG color so I had to get a TRD…oh darn.

 

The bottom is currently falling out of the used car market. I just finished an article about auto repossessions have doubled among prime borrowers(inflation victims). Used car prices are going to tank with inventory doubling. A cherry RAV4 would be ideal.

 

So maybe I lucked out as they gave me prime $$$ for the 4R trade-in.

I am sure bad things will happen, they are talking about another rate increase here, half or even 3/4 of a point. I see many vacation properties for sale, boats, ATVs, seadoos....they started falling through the cracks, thats for sure.

 

I'm kind of conflicted, on one hand. I want to keep the 4Runner for as long as it will go, which is probably another 10 years as long as I can keep the frame from rotting out from underneath it. On the other hand, I wonder if maybe I should just sell it now while it's still worth something.

Problem with selling it is that there's really nothing that I'd be excited to replace it with. Any of the new hybrids or more fuel efficient vehicles cost much more, and I don't want to get into a car payment situation. I like not having a car payment, and I don't ever want to have one again.

Actually, to back up a little bit, I wouldn't necessarily get some sort of a hybrid or super fuel efficient vehicle. I actually did the math when gas was still at 5/gallon in my area, with the difference in price between my 4R and a new RAV4 hybrid, it would still take me at least 6 years to even break-even on that, if gas was to stay at $5. Now that it's in the 3.50 range, it would take even longer.

Honestly, if I do sell it, it's more for the reason that I don't need a 20K vehicle parked out on the street, when a 10K vehicle will serve me just fine (especially for off-roading, I still think the 4Runner is nice enough and valuable enough that I don't want to bang it up off-road).

I still have 20 plus years to go toward retirement (if ever) and I honestly don't think I'll ever be financially secure enough to go out and buy a new vehicle. It took me too long to realize that having a nice vehicle wasn't all that important, so I'm planning on this 4Runner being the most expensive vehicle I'll ever own. I'm really hoping this EV thing doesn't make me go back on that. I think I saw Ford was coming out with an electric Transit, that may be a good option since I'd probably have to live in it, lol.