Needle bearing issue?

I think I’ve seen install vids somewhere where they slid the bushing over the axle where it’s supposed to ride. It seemed like pretty tight tolerance. However, It didnt seem like it was an interference fit though.

 

If using the ECGS install tool, it's impossible to drive the bushing too deep. Their tool has a lip on it that leaves the bushing dead flush with the face of the diff opening.

 

I am doing one today (second one of the week) and I will try to remember to take a pic of both outside of the diff.

 

If you want to see the play and the issue (Even if it isn't making noise), jiggle the axle on the driver side and watch how much movement between the axle flange and the differential then do the same thing with the passenger side. Driver side is almost double the movement. I will try to remember to get video before and after as well. I think the one coming in today is preventative

 

Yup the passanger axle has a ton of visible movement. I told my buddy to get under it, feel the movement on the axle coming out of the diff. He did and immediately blurted out “aw that’s bullshit” hahaha. It was such a gut reaction.

That it’s so loose has always made me wonder if it’s on purpose to some extent. Can’t imagine the reason why though. I just changed the diff oils, but I think next time I’m going to put some really thick gear oil in there…I’m curious. Unless somebody thinks that’s just a bad idea.

 

You could use the ECGS tool or a blind bearing puller. I will be using the latter to pull a similar, but larger bushing on the output shaft of an NP 241-C transfer case I will be rebuilding coming up in February. There are several needle bearing I will need to pull, all done with a blind bearing puller.

 

Just buy the entire kit with the tools that ECGS offers. The tool they offer does not allow it to be driven in too deep.

 

this is the best way to go I am glad I did it this way and since have done 3 of them (well help do the first one).

 

The blind bearing puller will work, just takes a little more finesse. I have a kit but I use the ECGS because it is a little easier for this size and tolerance.

 

I can't load a video here but here's the difference in their sizes. I will try to load the videos I took of the bearing versus bushing play on the axle outside of the differential onto YouTube and put a link here

 

awesome thanks!

 

Good picture shot it shows well how much wear surface you actually gain with the Bushing compared to the Needle bearing.

 

I too bought and used the kit from ECGS, but was just suggesting an alternative. You can probably get a free rental blind bearing puller from AutoZone.

 

Possibly, typically depends on your auto parts store. I have a Mac puller set but I usually just go with the ECGS puller because it is a bit easier (custom fit and purpose built) no guess work. It's been pretty good in all honesty

 

Just did the ecgs bushing on my 22 sr5, all stock with only 6k miles on it. Had the typical 30-40 mph vibration/noise. didn't feel like dealing with numerous trips to the dealership, very easy to replace the bearing. Needle bearing thst came out didn't show any flat spots or damage but new bushing quieted it right up. Just my .02

 

Good job! We did about the same thing, and I had the same thoughts on the multiple trips to the dealership, which is a hour away. They would have had the 'we can't hear or feel anything out of the norm' routine anyway. Some parts stores and dealerships have very minimal choices on employees, so we take what we get!

 

The Noise isn't coming from the bearing itself being worn or damaged it is caused by how loose the needle bearing allows the pinion to fit and move to slightly different angles and wobble and this does not mean that there is any wrong with the Needle bearing that does perform as expected at OEM specifications like no lift,

The EGC bushing being longer and fitting the Pinion shaft better holds it in the best position.
This is not only a 4Runner issue the Toyota Tacoma has the same thing (different size bushing required) it is just the way Needle bearing are and there are those who have gone for years without any issue with the OEM set up Then there are those who are more sensitive to any noise and vibrations around them while driving and notice it.

 

Seriously... why cant Toyota just issue a recall and install longer bushing instead of blowing services customers off.
Wasting resources replacing front differentials

Maybe not a safety issue... but really annoying in cold temps

 

Multiple reasons First one is that it is performing to OEM design specifications, Second it is not always a full on failure even though they replace the differential ( That is made by a 3rd party) So the cost to them is relatively low and the numbers that actually are a problem is low compared to the numbers of units produced and out there that do not have issues reported, So without actual numbers here is an example ---> let's say you build 1 million units and out of that 1 million 10 come back as a fail but then out of that 10 only 6 were actual fails what would you do?

It is mechanical and a failure rate is planed for with a rate of action for each level of failure by a percentage of fail Versus good produced.

Then look at the cost factor for the bushing install done by the Dealer if they went that route They (Toyota) would have to cover the cost to do that.

 

You are all correct with the exception of the needle bearing "not getting worn or damaged" they definitely do over time. The vibration beats up the retainer (race) that holds the needles in. This damages it and opens it up which allows the needles to start moving off their set axis. The race starts touching the axle and wearing which starts speeding up the deterioration. If left long enough, the back side of the race let's go and the needles can end up working free and falling in the diff then it is full rebuild time. Every time I pull a needle bearing out, I make sure that I count all of them to verify none have fallen in the diff. I've had some of them so loose that when I pull the axle out they just fall out of the race. When I'm out in the shop later I will take some pictures of the different stages of wear. I keep a chain of needle bearing trophies on the wall haha.

 

Oh well aware of the wear that the Needle bearing takes and never said that they do not get worn or damaged only state that it is not a significant number to Toyota and that does surprise me because it is the same issue with FJ Cruisers, Tacoma's and 4Runners on the Drivers side since they do install a good ball bearing on the passengers side why not drivers? My guess is due to the needle bearing cost they are cheap and meet OEM specs.

The vibration issue seems to be more in the "modified" lifted rig owners area because they are much more aware mechanically and sensitive to their 4Runner performance so that vibration sets off alarms with them quicker and then there are 4Runners out there that never have any kind of issue with the needle bearing and run for years.

To me Just replace the needle bearing with the ECGS bushing and be done with it because long term the vibration can cause rather expensive damage to the differential when things are loose and moving in ways not intended for by design.

 

Just figured I would post this video for those who are not sure this is one of the better ones I have seen on it simply because they were doing other things in the front so the work area is wide open to see details clearly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nllcwqI1YVI

 

Any opinions on where the seam on the bushing should go? Top? Am I overthinking it? Lol.

 

I totally overthink it as well... I put it straight back because when everything is torquing it seems to press on the top and front more so it seems with angles and everything that straight back level sees the least pressures

 

Glad I asked. I figured you might have an informed opinion!

 

Did a bearing/bushing swap on a 2017 SR5 today... Definitely excessive play on factory height (no lift) suspension. 73k miles. Clean 4Runner though.

 

How long does a typical ECGS bushing installation take you start to finish?

 

Did it ever have shimmy issues before hand

 

They take me 2-2.5 hours depending on how difficult the clip on the end of the axle is to get out. Some pop right out, some take a bunch of work/hammer, spin, hammer, spin.....etc

It started making the vibrations so we changed it. It slowly got worse and worse until the owner brought it to me. Still no lift. It is stock height

 

I am considering buying a 4 Runner. Is it true many 4 Runners that are not lifted never have this problem? And if the differential is replaced under the TSB, does that eliminate the problem? The TSB indicates that after a specific VIN, they changed production? I’m assuming they started installing a newly designed front differential?