Needle bearing issue?

It’s interesting that you mentioned that the dealerships aren’t really doing anything once the vehicle gets booked in. Even when armed with the Differential TSB furnished to the service dept. The tech drove the vehicle from the parking lot to service bay and left it there for a few hours unattended. Around mid-day. Moved it to parking lot. Then exactly 4pm called to say they had finished testing since and couldn't reproducing. I guess they didn't know my vehicle tracker logs every activity instantly.


Hello – The truck has been sitting in the parking lot for 4hours unattended.

No offense to anyone. My Observations

 

Maybe you can get the Factory service tech's email address ? There is a post on an earlier Thread on this Forum that had pics of why the needle bearing fails, and the successful after-market fix. It's just difficult to believe Toyota has never corrected this problem. But maybe this tech would be interested in receiving this information (?)

 

I did send the service manager the ECGS site and videos - he didn't think that was a good fix (I do) and wanted to let Toyota figure this out. I'll keep you all posted. My first thought was I'll by the ECGS fix and they can put it in. 10K on a 100K warranty!

 

Service manager had an opinion on ECGS fix for faulty Toyota design? He is overeducated or underpaid for mechanic coordinator. He wants you back in few years for another needle bearing. Why would he care about better especially non-Toyota product.

 

No he's a good guy with a solid tech background. I think his point is "let's get Toyota to get this right." And I'm really interested in what the regional tech found and if the replacement of the axle and another diff fixes this. In the mean time, with the warm weather, it's so much less noticeable I'm ok with the wait.

I want to find out where the guy who had Toyota put in the ECGS bushing for $100!

 

We put in the ECGS bushing after 2 service managers at different places said, "I guess I've never heard of this situation." I had a friend who has access to a hoist where he works, this makes the job sooo much easier, the final cost was a case of beer and the cost for the bushing, seal, and tools from ECGS to remove and install. Shop time is about $100 an hour, maybe the mechanic was really good at this, but at any rate the cost of the parts & tools is more than 100, bushing alone $60 I thought.

 

Thanks for the info (I like beer - if this doesn't fix it, I'll go after them for the ECGS bushing. Thanks!!

 

Mine was a different part number when I got the invoice after mine was replaced

 

Did you have just the needle bearing or the whole diff replaced? What year is your Runner? And, if you could share the part number that would be super helpful!!!

 

I am the original poster of this thread lol...all the information is in the beginning. I had the whole front differential replaced, mine I noticed at 100 miles and finally got done @ 900. And it’s a 2022

 

Your symptoms were different from mine.
I took your advise and used an impact wrench to tighten all 10MM nuts especially those holding the tiny splash guard under the front wheel wells.
For about a week now.

No groaning/flapping noise on passenger front when decelerating or coasting.
Fingers crossed.

Its also been warm that could also factor in

 

Mine is going in tomorrow for a new front diff (the original and then this is the second replacement). The service manager said it had to be manufactured (the diff and/or the front left axle) after April 12, 2022. I'll keep you posted!

 

They replaced the front diff and the driver's side axle. The "correction" on the work order reads, "Replace SOP front differential (post countermeasure date of 4.12.22 or newer per FTS") I don't know what SOP is!
Tmiesowicz - the part number of the replacement is the same as your part number 4111035A92. "Cause" on the work order is "mismatched front diff and LF CV axle per FTS." The axle part number is 434306008284. It's a re-manufactured shaft and "clean" core. They drove it 15 miles during the service (not sure if before or after or both). It's warm now here in VT so the noise was less in the last month - but definitely still noticeable and "feelable." Driving home from the dealership the steering felt much tighter and no noise, no vibration - the truck felt new. I assume the first replacement diff was just a swap with another "bad" one and either they mucked up the CV axle or it was, as they say, a mismatch. I will be keeping track and updating as time goes on but the real test, I assume, will be when the fall and winter temps arrive. For now, I'm optimistic.

 

https://youtu.be/nllcwqI1YVI

At 50 seconds he shows a pretty bad one and how much play. Truth be told, a good needle still has quite a bit of play. I change at least 2 or 3 of these a month on 4Runners and Tacoma's.

 

Keeping a few bushings in the shop now! Here is also a side by side of needle vs bushing for those that haven't seen the difference

 

This is the same condition our needle bearing looked like, it doesn't appear to be bad. Did you try to put the needle bearing on the axle and see how much 'slop' there is from the machined surface of the axle to the I.D. of the bearing? It's no wonder it makes racket. If the bearing/axle clearance was more like the bushing/axle clearance, the needle bearing might not be a trouble spot.

 

I purchased a new '22 in November '21. Within 100 miles it was back at dealership for needle bearing noise. It was like pulling teeth to get them to fix it the needle bearing. They finally replaced whole front diff. About 400 miles later, noise started up again!!! Bought ECGS bearing, had local guy install it for about $380. Truck now has 11K on her, smooth as a baby's behind.
Oh, to make matters worst when I picked up new truck after front diff replacement, there was a dent in drivers door! They fixed it but it was another blow from the dealer that I will never return to. Harr Toyota in Worcester, MA.

 

I have swapped a TON of these for people. I am assuming there is a little slop in them for heat expansion etc from the factory. I can't believe that Toyota would leave them as loose as they are for any other reason. I've swapped them on stock and lifted ones. Just going under and wiggling the CV axle at the differential you will see how much slop there is. It is a bit disappointing that Toyota has not corrected this issue. Long story short, Toyota knows it is an issue but does not see a need to correct it.

 

I charge a flat fee of $200 plus parts but i am not a "shop" with overhead, just a ASE certified hobbyists with to many tools and not enough sense to say no!!!! Haha

 

Where are you located?

 

Citrus Heights California

 

Update from VT. We've had some colder weather - in the 20s and 30s and I think they fixed it! I'll update again as the weather really cools (and hope I haven't jinxed myself!). The correction read replace front diff with, "post countermeasure date of 4.12.22 or newer" and front left axle - they used a re-manufactured axle with a "clean core" - wondering if that helped take up some slop too. I'll keep you all posted!

I definitely considered the ECGS bushing but I'm under warranty and will be for 8.5 more years and 85,000 more miles (and that Toyota should just figure this out!! Fingers crossed!

 

Another day, another needle bearing out and ECGS Bushing in! I have to remember to post pics. Today's was one of the worst ones I've seen without them actually falling apart. The retainer holding all the needle bearings in place is flattened out and the bearings are barely sticking

 

I hope the best for you BUT ..... 2023 models have the same diff/issue as all previous. (I changed a needle bearing on a 2023 a few weeks ago with all the same issues). Toyota really messed up with that design (in my opinion). I can't imagine how much money they are spending replacing differentials rather than just contracting/buying rights to the bushing system that ECGS has.

 

You are right. The local Toyota service departments pretend not to hear the groaning in cold weather - after checking in the truck for diagnosis.

 

I could not believe the terrible machining tolerances when we changed ours. If the part suppliers compared notes, like on machined size of the axle and bearing size, this could be avoided.... maybe. BTW, our bearing looked like new, but the amount of 'slop' bearing to axle was insane.

 

After almost 50k my needle bearing just started humming. Looks like its time for the ecg bushing swap.

 

@Toy4X4 you are EXACTLY right. I went to the dealership to measure some emblems for the vinyl stuff I mess around with and crawled under a 4Runner with less than 20 miles.... Brand new off the boat, factory ride height and the axle moves all around. Toyota considers it acceptable lash (or whatever they want to say). I am amazed that axle seals stay in these things with that much slop. Obviously it works for a long time, it's just a shame that it's so bad. Toyota built a great reputation over generations and things like this are kind of chipping away at it (in my opinion). The problems with the new Tundra, this axle/needle issue, the third Gen Tacoma early issues. I'm not knocking Toyota, obviously I bought one and love it, I just expected a little bit more customer care and responsible engineering based off reputation than we are seeing now.

 

How many miles on that one? A little bit longer and it would have become a bushing lol.

What do you think about the need to replace axles when they are scored and going onto a new ecgs bushing? When is a new one necessary and how often do you see that?

Also, you had mentioned a trick to get the axle out without having to do something something, but I forgot details. I knew you had mentioned posting up some details on that a while back, not sure if I missed it.

 

The only axles I've seen that were bad enough to replace were the ones where the needle bearing actually went out and sent pieces into the diff. At that point it is essentially a diff rebuild. I'm not sure how many miles this one had after the lift but all the lift components were pretty new. The owner also said he was trying to figure out the sound for a while. My guess would be 5k to 10k on the 2" lift, 90k on the vehicle.
The way I do these:
Pull fill plug first to make sure you can get gear oil back in before starting
Pull ABS sensor wire
Pull the brake hose mount bolt
Pull caliper and wire everything to the side out of the way
Pull lower ball joint bolts
Pull tie rod end
Pull bump stop
Tap or pull the axle out and swing hub and disk assembly out and forward and slide the axle through the frame-lower control arm gap that you gained by removing the bump stop
Then pull axle seal and needle bearing
Install everything back opposite order.

About 2 hours if you move efficiently and don't get into the beers to soon haha