EU Passes Law Banning Sale of New Gas-Powered Vehicles by 2035

Absolutley agree owners responsibility. I have never ran out of gas either. My point was for many in this situation it became a problem after many days with no power to recharge. The infrastructure at least here in SE Michigan is not yet sustainable to have the many public charging stations that were needed while personal residences had no power. The person with an ICE vehicle at least had the opportunity to commute to nearby towns with power to purchase gasoline.

I was not trying to start a debate here just making an observation about recent events.

 

If the had enough fuel to get there. And for the record, I don’t believe most places are ready for a large number of EVs. I think we need more vehicles like the Rav4 prime, plug in hybrids. We go months without putting gas in it, but can ICE when the drive is more than the available charge, which is typically 50 miles.

 

I definitely think plug in hybrids are a great compromise of the best of both worlds.

As far as ICE VS electric, the fact is that ICE vehicles can refill in a few minutes, and can carry extra range in a can. I'll still take an ICE over an EV in a catastrophe any day.

 

Agreed, for now. We will see solar panels fill that void at some point. But folks still need to be prepared.

 

I suppose, if they can figure out how to make them much more efficient and inexpensive. As of now, it would be pretty inconvenient to carry enough solar panels to give you a significant amount of range in a reasonable amount of time.

 

I was in the Netherlands last week. Plenty of ICE still in use over there and most people are not happy with this announcement. Farmers are very upset and protesting the government over the CO2 emission standards passed recently. It is essentially putting them out of business.

 

Yeah hybrid seems like a good combo. I don’t know too much about them other than some friends from church with a RAV4 hybrid switch back to their Volvo ICE car for winter. Apparently that vehicle anyway is very slow to warm up winter according to them. They love the mileage though in the 50s.

As for me I’ll stick with my ice vehicles for now I have enough for a long time. Someday maybe I’ll go electric but for me they feel like fast golf cart and just not as a fun or rewarding to drive.

 

Agreed. We’ve lost power for longer than a week on several occasions. Recharging definitely would have been a problem then.

 

We just got our power back on late Sunday evening after being out since Wednesday. Even though DTE (our local power monopoly) says it was a once-in-50 year ice storm, those storms are becoming more common. There is not a chance the grid will support new EV's and housing growth. Michigan is projected to be a drought and heat wave haven in the near future, but without the grid to support barely any growth, I can't see it happening. As others have said, a hybrid or plug-in hybrid would be a much smarter way to reduce emissions and stretch our fossil fuels.

 

i live in Maine, and our Rav Prime gets plenty hot. If it’s too cold, you just switch from Battery mode to ICE and it works just like any other ICE. In fact, there are 2 different heat modes, once uses battery, and the other kicks in the ICE to use. In the mornings, heat kicks in at the same general spot both my 4Runner and our Subaru Outback, just about 1.5 miles from our house. But with the Rav’s heated seats and steering wheel, I’m feeling heat within seconds.
And there are 3 different rav4s. 1-straight ICE, 2nd-Hybrid, 3rd Plug in Hybrid (which has a larger battery than the hybrid, and can run about 50 miles per charge).

 

I thinks it’s great to have EVs and stick it to the poor, screw those people. No way the local government housing, old apartment buildings, rundown townhomes (or any high density housing) can’t afford to be retrofitted for the charging, doesn’t have the space or infrastructure to support it. Hell, the grid in general for North America is in terrible shape.

As for power outages vs gas. Lots of our gas stations here have back up generators, and tankers are external to power outage areas so you can always tanker fuel in. You can’t just bring in electricity.

Forcing a society to be less diverse on its resources is a set up for failure. All we need (already) is one good solar storm hit from the sun to send us back to the Stone Age. Or a terrorist attacker on the grid to cripple a focussed area, as a lot of power station and transfer station equipment takes weeks or months to replace.

Honestly, plug in hybrids make the most sense, having your vehicle rely on 2 resources.

 

Hear hear.

 

That is a great point about old apartment buildings and housing areas where people park on street etal. They will have to to charge at public places only if they can even afford to own one of these cars.

in my neighborhood people with families have three or four cars with a 30 foot driveway and sometimes garages. Are we going to have cords laying around driveways to trip over every night?

Hopefully people can have a choice on what to purchase what suits their needs.

 

Rav4 Prime, uses standard 120 outlet. All I did was drill a hole in the kitchen wall to outside, ran wire from a kitchen receptical (not on same breaker as stove or fridge) and installed an outdoor receptacle. Plugged in the charger and away we go.

 

By code newer houses all have outside receptacles. But, tapping them off the kitchen circuit isn't really ideal. Also, that's a lot easier than adding a bunch of receptacles in an apartment parking lot, or parking structure, or in areas where there is street parking.

Out of curiosity, does it say anywhere how much it draws at 120v?

 

I could have run the line from my back deck receptacle, or even living room but this was easiest and didn’t appear to have much of a draw on the circuit I use. I don’t recall what the draw is, but I remember something saying it was like an air conditioner.

 

I tried googling it, and everything says it draws 12 amps. That's like running a table saw nonstop. If I were to get one of those, I'd probably want it on a dedicated circuit.

I was just mentioning that because the kitchen appliance circuits aren't supposed to feed anything outside of the kitchen.

 

And try running that 12 amps through an extension cord that's too small of a guage or too long, and then the voltage drops to a point that it could cause damage to the charger. Like running a space heater on a lamp cord. I would recommend 12 guage or larger, and no longer than 25'

 

[Really curious what an EVRunner would be like and how that would change offroading and accessories. No more gas/water cans needed. Now you would carry a spare charging unit? If battery is under the vehicle, how would that work for offroading if you're scraping things up going over rocks?[/QUOTE]

Check out the Rivian R1S - it's a bit larger than a 4Runner but that will give you an idea of what an EV 4Runner could be like. 4WD standard with either 2 or 4 motors and various software controlled off-road modes, adjustable air suspension with max ground clearance of 14.9" from the factory, water fording up to 42" with no mods. It comes with standard battery protection but there is an optional factory carbon fiber/steel/aluminum skid plate for off-roading to protect the battery and the entire undercarriage. It's large enough to sleep in comfortably, EPA range with the standard "large" battery pack is 289-321 miles depending on the wheel/tire combo. Longer range version (390 miles, nearly the same as a 4Runner with a full tank) is planned for this fall. 0-60 in about 3 seconds.

The Rivians are pricey but supposedly they are working on a cheaper, smaller version for mass production. And if you factor in tax credits and gas savings over 100K-300K miles (assuming you have a way to charge at home affordably) even at current pricing it starts to look pretty competitive with a higher trim level 4Runner.

I just ran the EPA calculator - currently the projected fuel cost to drive a 4Runner 100K miles (gas at $3.34/gal, 17mpg avg) is about $19,647 [edited due to math error, sorry!]. With solar panels on the roof at home, or a low cost time of use plan to charge at off-peak hours, the cost to drive an EV 100K miles would be much lower. TRD ORP MSRP is about $50K depending on options. So around $69,650 over 100K miles plus routine maintenance, any suspension upgrades, armor, etc. The R1S costs between $78-98K depending on trim level, battery size, and other options. And that is before the $7500 federal tax credit and any additional state/local tax credits.

 

Good point! I would want a 20 amp circuit if I were using an extension cord, and a 12awg cord, as well. Voltage drop shouldn't be bad with a good extension cord, though. I wouldn't go any longer than necessary. I would hope those chargers have circuitry built in to compensate for low voltage.

 

Make sure you factor in that battery replacement, as well.

 

Sure, but the battery is warranteed for 8 years/175K miles - so if you only keep it for that long, it's already factored in.

Edit: fuel cost to drive a 4runner 175K miles at 3.34/gallon, avg 17 mpg is about $34,382. This amount should cover at least 1-2 full battery replacements in an EV 4Runner or SUV of your choice.

Battery costs are high now, but may be quite a bit lower by the time it needs replacement. And they may well last over 300K miles, time will tell. I'm pretty sure there are Teslas that have gone over a million miles on the original battery.

 

Out of curiosity, does the EPA calculator also factor in kilowatt hours per mile and estimate the charging cost based on your local power utility's rates?

I'm not trying to come off as anti-ev, because I think there are some cool benefits. I just don't think that there anywhere near where they need to be yet for everyone to start switching over.

 

The EPA calculator does show kWh/100 miles but I think it just estimates the cost of power based on some kind of national average (not sure what they use for $/kWh), as power costs vary dramatically based on where you live, what plans your utility offers, time of day, etc. They seem to just do a basic MPGe number for each EV to give you a starting point for comparison.

I'm also not suggesting that everyone should switch to an EV now or be required to at any given point, just pointing out that they are starting to become cost competitive when you factor in fuel costs and total cost of ownership over a number of years. And so they do make sense for many people even now, especially those that drive more miles per year than average.

Here is a link to the EPA comparison calculator between the 4Runner (17MPG) and Rivian R1S (64MPGe or 53kWh/100 miles). You can personalize it and play with the annual mileage, cost of gas, etc. Over 100K miles the cost savings are significant but will depend on the cost of power where you live, if you have solar panels, free charging at work, etc. In my case we installed solar panels about a year ago with about 50% extra capacity so we will be able to charge at home for free if/when we get an EV or PHEV. The total cost of the solar panels was about $20K after tax credits and the cost of the extra capacity was more like $6-7K so it seemed like a no-brainer. It also saves us about $1300 per year in electricity as it zeroed out our power bill.

 

I would be curious about that warranty. Pro-rated? If the battery craps out at 7.5 years or 165k miles, you get a whole new one for free?

Or, if you have a Rivian with that age and mileage, on the original battery, are you going to have to eat the cost of that when you try to sell or trade? I mean, who wants to buy a vehicle that needs an immediate $15k (or whatever) investment?

Another thought is that ICE vehicles pay some amount in fuel taxes for road upkeep, etc. With EVs, it can only be a matter of time before per-mile charges are implemented/expanded to offset the losses of revenue resulting from fewer fuel-burning vehicles.

 

As far as I can tell the warranty is not pro-rated, but it does account for some degradation of capacity over time. The federal government requires manufacturers to offer at least an eight-year/100,000-mile warranty on all EV batteries. California mandates a warranty of 10 years or 150,000 miles. I'm pretty sure you'd get at least a reconditioned battery pack (or replacement of any faulty cells etc) for free anytime up to the end of the warranty period. Resale value once it's out of warranty is a big question mark for sure though. And good point about per mile charges replacing gas taxes, that could happen but will likely depend on where you live, etc.

The EPA page on EVs states "Batteries for EVs are designed for extended life, and a study by DOE's National Renewable Energy Laboratory suggest these batteries may last 12 to 15 years in moderate climates and 8 to 12 years in severe climates. However, these batteries are expensive, and replacing them may be costly if they fail."

Overall the Rivian warranty looks to me significantly better than the warranty on a new 4Runner - assuming they stay in business. It kind of has to be as they are a new company with unknown reliability. Here is what Rivian's warranty page says:

United States

The New Vehicle Limited Warranties include:

• Comprehensive: The cost of all parts and labor necessary for any defective materials are covered for 5 years or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first
• Battery Pack: Coverage includes all components inside the high-voltage battery and 70% or more of the battery capacity for 8 years or 175,000 miles, whichever comes first
• Drivetrain: Coverage includes the drivetrain and components for 8 years or 175,000 miles, whichever comes first
• Corrosion (perforation): Body panels that are perforated by corrosion will be covered for 8 years
  

 

All valid points. This is why I view it currently as the potential to change the country as far as who will have a car.

Imagine those in the lower income brackets who stick their neck out spending $25-30k on a used car now. On top of that you tell them well you need this $6-15k battery for this 7 year old car in order to even use it?? After all that’s why it’s going to be used since the original owner wants out of it.

I personally believe this could force a lot of lower to middle class folks to at some point not be able to afford a vehicle and not be able to work.

Henry Ford and the model T offered an affordable vehicle for the masses to grow the economy and to expand opportunities for so many. As of today I view EVs as having the potential to do the opposite and take the opportunity to own a car away and not allow as many to work.

 

A NEW Chevy Bolt EV now starts at under $27K. Before tax credits.

Low cost EV's are here, and more are on the way in the next few years.

 

I can definitely see how EV's are becoming a great option for a lot of people. I'm actually in favor of them as an option, but not in favor of mandates.

I still think we need to find a better power supply.

 

Did not realize the Bolt was in that price range. Hope the quality of that is better than the GM ICE vehicles.