Questions about 4 LO - Comparison

Hello all,

So i've been considering getting a 3rd or 4th gen 4runner. I drove a 4th gen today..... 2003 4.7 auto SR5.....and was surprised by how "high" 4LO is. It almost didn't even feel like a 4LO. Before anyone asks....yes, i'm sure it was in 4LO. lol Also, I didn't know that you can't even select 1st gear and make it stay in 1st. Apparently the lowest option you can choose is 2nd?

My question is do you know how the 3rd gen compare to the 4th gen in this regard?

Any idea what the gearing would be on each for 1st in the trans, and then the differential gears?

I realize you could always regear everything, but that is a lot of money and effort.

Thanks!

 

What are you comparing it to? The low range on the 4Runner is something like 2.57:1, so not the best.

If it didn't feel like 4LO, I doubt it was in 4LO.

Are you sure it was in 4LO?

You stopped, put it in neutral, and then shifted into 4LO?

Was it beeping?

Was the light flashing, or solid?

Yes you can.

 

Yes, i'm sure it was in 4LO. 100%

So on the shifter it shows the lowest selection as 2. There is no 1 on the shifter when put all the way down. It looks like it will start in 1st obviously, but will shift into 2nd on it's own. Rather than being forced to stay in 1st if that makes sense. 2.57:1 would explain it. Even my F150 TCASE is lower, but combined with a manual trans it is even lower. I think that combined with being an auto makes it even worse as far as "crawling" abilities. Pretty disappointing. I think i'll be looking into the 3rd gen next or possibly even a 1st gen tundra. The 4th gen is just too "middle of the road" for me.

Thanks for the info though.
-Ben

 

Most t-cases are in the 2.5 - 2.7 range. That's what makes the Jeep Rubicon t-case, as an example, so nice off road. It's hard to get a good crawl ratio with axle gearing, and with most auto transmissions, 1st gear especially, is just too high.

Ford (Bronco) and Jeep (Wrangler) both offer a manual transmission with what used to be called a "granny" gear, a low first-gear. With a manual transmission Jeep Wrangler (Rubicon) you can get a 100:1 crawl ratio, stock. A 4Runner will have less than half of that, and therefore, in first-gear, low range, will travel at almost three times the speed at idle. You have to "ride" the brake in most 4WD nowadays.

ETA: Marlin Crawler makes a "Taco Box" https://www.marlincrawler.com/product/tacobox-for-1995-5-speed-manual-or-auto-transmission this is an underdrive, or second t-case.

You probably understand this, but for those that don't:
multiply first-gear, t-case low range, differential gearing = crawl ratio
Crawl ratio is also torque multiplication, so your lower gearing (higher number) is how much torque you're multiplying at the rear wheels. It's also a reducer of speed by the same ratio. A 4Runner that idles along in 4low at 5mph would idle at 2.5mph if the crawl ratio was doubled. This means you don't have to use your brakes as you "crawl" over uneven terrain, your vehicle is essentially speeding up (ever so slightly) and engine braking as it tries to maintain an idle. A 100:1 crawl ratio means your vehicle will idle at less than a walking speed. My JLR idled at 1mph in 4-low, and crawled up, down, and over everything without driver input with the accelerator.

 

Sorry, I had to ask. I actually had an '03 V8, and there was absolutely no doubt when it was in 4LO.

Here's an actual picture of the shifter in my '03. Try to ignore the kitten. It just happens to be the only picture I can find of the shifter.

To keep it in 1st (L), you'd go all the way down, and to the right.

I wouldn't expect the crawl gear to be a whole lot different than that of the 4th gen 4Runner. Definitely look it up before you waste your time.

 

Ace: All good points. Decisions decisions. If they were actually well made i'd just buy a Jeep, BUT..... lol Speaking from experience here.

Thatbassguy: It's all good. I understand why you would ask. Not everyone is on the same level with cars/trucks and 4x4 driving.
You see what I mean about the 2-L on the shifter? If you were to go all the way down the column, and then try to push it to the right to keep it in L......there's nothing there. It's just all the way down and that's all. Unless the one I was driving was messed up? If you go all the way down, are you able to select another gear by going to the right on yours? Sorry for the explanation.....not sure else how to make the question clear.

I'm just trying to find a vehicle that I can load up, and take the pup camping with me off road on the weekends. I have a 98' F150 i've put about $6k of parts into to repair everything that was wrong, and I love the damn thing, but it has rust issues and keeps needing more work. Otherwise it'd be perfect IMO. On paper it's great.... V8, 4x4, 5 speed manual, 16-17mpg, manual T-case shifter, easily fit 33's stock, 35's with a 2" lift, etc etc.

 

Also, I will NOT ignore the kitten. That thing is cute. haha

 

I get what you're saying. Honestly, I did not off-road much at all with that one, and I traded it in in 2017. Just looking at the picture I assumed that L would be to the right of 2 at the bottom, but it's definitely possible that I am wrong. I'm not sure why they would show it like that with the letters on the shifter itself, though.

Did you actually try shifting all the way back and then to the right?

 

Haha! That's Frank. We got him in fall of 2016. That was taken on the way home from where we picked him up. He is the funniest cat I've ever had.

Recent Pic, and then I'll stay on topic:

 

I did try that. It LOOKS like it would go over into L, but nothing. IDK.

Haha. Cool looking cat. Does he still ride with you?

 

No, but I've thought about trying to bring him on longer trips. He's fine on his own for a few days, but I feel bad sometimes.

I could have definitely been wrong about the shifter. I didn't do any crawling in the '03, so I was just going off the picture.

 

https://youtu.be/fy-joi4lNbk?si=7Pk7Dd2W65Hv7bHq&t=650

Here you can see the shifter go right into L position (10:50), something's not right if you can't select L by pushing right.

 

Thatbassguy: LOL Understood. I always feel guilty if I don't bring my dog on trips, which is probably a big part of why I always bring my dog on trips.

Icebear: Ah haaaa! Excellent video to show it. I'm going to double check that because my father actually has a 2003 4runner.

Thanks!

 

So I took another look and that shifter was not going into L. Only into 2. I imagine it would be taking off from L (1st) anyway.

I should probably start a new thread on this, but do you guys know how well the stock transmissions, diffs, and axles hold up? Any known issues? Thanks.

 

Based on the video posted by @icebear , it sounds like there is something wrong with the one you looked at.

Yes, it should still take off from 1st. But, if it's supposed to be able to go into L, and it isn't, I probably wouldn't buy that one.

All of the drivetrain parts are generally pretty solid. I haven't really heard of issues with that transmission before.

 

That particular example you drove appears to have a transmission linkage issue if it isn't going into L. In general the A750F is fairly reliable, but 20 year-old vehicle is still a 20 year-old vehicle. Factors that can kill the drivetrain parts are simple aging (think rear wheel bearings) and lack of maintenance.

The transfer case can develop actuator shift shaft leaks, replacing the seals requires disassembling the transfer case.

Most common issue on the 4.7L is cracked exhaust manifolds. This was a factor in me avoiding 4th gens when I went car shopping in late 2022.

 

Ok. Thanks. All good points.
I think they're like any used car really, but that they were created with "good bones." You don't know what you're going to get until you get it. I was a mechanic for several years and have seen what people do/don't do to/for their cars. Appreciate all the info. I've been debating between 4 different vehicles and just trying to get as much info on them as possible to make the best decision.