Front Lift/UCA question

Pardon the long message.
Greetings all,
New member and proud owner of a '22 TRDORP
I have had 3rd, 4th 5th gens, so I am a Toyota Guy all the way. However, always drove stock (I had kids and was being dad). This is the first time I can make a 4runner mine.

First order of business was to change the suspension. I settled on Bilstein 6112/5160.
My goal was only to lift the front to level it out some and mitigate the nose dive that is part of this truck. I also wanted to have the option for a more aggressive lift later. I prefer some some small amount of rake such as to be able to load the rear with passengers, stuff, etc and not be nose high.
The truck came with Ridge Grapplers (265s) and I also wanted to keep these to save some money. I had the install done at a recommended local shop (I usually do my own work, but didnt want to tackle spring compressor). I also upgraded wheels to Method 703s (17x8.5, 0 offset).
Final front lift was just under 1.75ish
After the lift, I noticed that the vehicle seemed to wander to the right on the highway. Speaking to the installer (also did alignment), he said he was limited on max caster - which I knew was possible with stock UCAs but I admit I was surprised as the general rule of thumb has been that if the lift is less than 2" then stock UCA should be ok.
I then decided to change the UCAs to give me more caster and help with the alignment. I opted for JBAs (IMO good balance of cost/quality). This time I did the work myself.
I took the vehicle for re-alignment and these were the final numbers:
LF: Camber -.5, Caster +3.7, Toe .08
RF: Camber -.5, Caster +4.2, Toe .08
Truck seems to drive straight. Still very very slight drift to right on highway (I attribute to road crown), but steering is much more precise, tight and responsive. My biggest disappointment was that I had rub on front mudflaps at full lock. I removed the flaps for now.
I was VERY surprised at this as I thought stock tire size with added caster would definitely not rub. After investigation, it seems that high caster UCAs move the wheel back to then allow for positive caster. This, in addition to the increase in wheel width and offset from stock may have also contributed.
I should also clarify that I am not a lift/suspension/alignment expert so this is new territory for me.
Here are a couple of questions/observations:
1. How are my alignment numbers? Should I chase more caster? Try to get to 4.5? Will that assist in the mudflap rub? Theory says "possible", but I dont think .3-.4 more caster will magically fix my issue. Plus, alignments are not cheap and good alignment shops that are willing to perform these types of detailed alignments are nearly impossible to find.
2. I am concerned that if I decide to go to 285s, I will rub even more. Possibly needing BMC (which is a no for me). While I would likely need additional lift for 285s, doesnt seem to me like I will be able to avoid cab mount rub.
3. From my own personal anecdotal observations it seems that most people that run stock wheels (TRDORP, TRD PRO) with modified lifts seem to have much less chance of rub and mostly everyone that runs aftermarket wheels with even slightly different width/offset result in rub/BMC/bumper mods. Am I wrong?
4. My alignment guy also said I should probably bring the truck back in after 3-4k miles after suspension settles to have re-check/re-align.
5. Should I sell all of it and go with something else that is easier to adjust? Eibach? Will this help correct?

In the end, the truck drives well and I am a bit paranoid that I may be chasing something that is not attainable. Mix in general mistrust with the automotive industry here in South FL and I am quite confused with how to proceed.

Again, apologies for the long first post.
Thanks to all replies in advance.

 

I see you added a twist ending to your story…..So. Fla. I lived in Miami for almost 20 years, moved to Central Fla. 2 years ago. Anyway, the quality of work down there is questionable at best.

Coming back around, I have the same size wheels and tires that you have but with no lift and have not experienced any rub, so your situation is surprising. I would not expect any rubbing but every truck seems to be unique. Can you trust those alignment numbers? They may be off but who knows.

Oh, I almost forgot, welcome to the forum!!!

 

Wide wheels will cause some rubbing. If you don’t want to deal with the issues that come with lifting and bigger wheels/tires, I would keep it stock. Lift isn’t much of a factor in fitting bigger tires, it comes down to your wheel specs and alignment. Plenty of people running 285’s on stock suspension. Sounds like you might need your alignment a little dialed in and/or suspension checked it it’s drifting. Mine drives straight no issues.

 

Thanks for both replies
Accelerator - a fact I left out; with stock UCAs I didnt even come close to rubbing. After install and alignment, I started rubbing on the front flaps. Also, when I say rub, I mean full lock and some articulation results in a VERY mimimal rub (think minor scuffs on flap). In speaking to JBA, which BTW- I found very helpful, reinforced the theory that higher caster UCAs indeed shift the wheel back toward the cab in order to give you more caster to work with. I found this to be a double edged sword in my case.
Mtb - interesting you should say that. I think you may be right, but I also think that folks running 285s on stock suspension must also have stock wheels as I stated. Even then, I wonder how they get into a decent alignment or avoid any mods.

Since I chose to run 265s, and prob will continue to do so, I definitely thought I was safe with the Methods.......maybe not.

Lastly, I also believe there are levels of satisfaction. Some people dont mind have to correct steering while driving aka countersteering. The logic is sometimes that "its a truck" and not a low profile sportscar. I am nearly OCD when it comes to a perfectly straight steering wheel and straight tracking.

 

I can help here.
I ran stock size tire 265/70/r17 but with wheels with a 0 offset, and they rub, even with a 2" lift.

Things rub not because of lift, they rub because of placement in the wheel well relative to lift. In fact, people who say they run a certain combo and don't rub, might not...until they offroad and flex. Even with 2" of lift, on 31" OEM size tires, I rub, because of offset. I trimmed a bit, and it is fine. I knew this going in, however, because the offset is needed to move the tire away from the UCA, especially when running aftermarket UCAs (I ran the JBAs).

The suspension you chose is good, known a lot of people (including myself on a different T4R) that ran Bilsteins, JBAs, etc. Going with a different suspension will yield same result. If you don't want to rub, you gotta do one of two things.
1. OEM wheels, OEM size tires, and OEM wheel width. I.E. Don't change things.
2. Trim stuff and accept those mudflaps might need to come off.

---- To Answer your questions: -----
1. Alignment - Don't' chase caster. It's fine. Alignment is as much art as science, find an alignment person who knows what they are talking about. Someone told me once they couldn't adjust my camber, and I told them it's on the bottom. They didn't know what I meant. I went somewhere else....
2. 285s = more rub than 265s, it's just math. Probably need a BMC unless you run a small 285 (like K02). If you're not familiar with those numbers, 265mm width vs 285mm width, and 70 (middle number) is a % of the overall width, so 70% of 265mm is 185.5mm tall vs 70% of 285mm is 199.5mm tall. So wider and taller.
3. This observation is correct due to offset and width of wheels.
4. Yes, but not to him possibly.
5. Unlikely your results will improve until you're sure of what's causing the issue. Not an insult, just keep digging and we'll try to help.

If you learn all there is to learn about this, dial it in, it will drive straight, with your steer ahead straight, and drive nice on the road. I own a lifted 4Runner and LC200 Land Cruiser and both are a pleasure to drive on road trips.

 

fajitas - thank you for the information.
I am not sure there is an issue per se. It seems like variability from truck to truck. One thing I have read over and over is that no 2 truck suspensions are exactly the same. I am an engineer by trade and have worked with assemblies that contain parts manufactured to very precise tolerances and even then, rarely do two assemblies behave the same every single time.
It would seem my only card left to play is the alignment. I have triple checked my work. I have gone over the suspension work performed by the shop. Short of disassembing and reassembling, I think I have covered most everything.
Additionally, could also be tire run out variation. Could be easily checking by tire rotation. I believe this is likely my next move. BTW (tires pressures all match)

Anything else I can check?

I have contemplated another alignment, but of course when I speak to any shop and politely explain what I am looking for, they all assure me that that they have a "top alignment guy" and that the work I had done previously was prob shit even though the numbers seem good. Very frustrating. Extremely hard to find an honest, competent and patient alignment tech. I actually had a private shop OWNER smugly tell me that you cannot adjust caster and camber (only toe) on a 4runner last week. I suspect he just didnt want to the work.

 

I feel ya, I get the same runaround (can't adjust Camber the most), which is wrong, they just don't know how or don't want to.

One place you may have some success is someone who does 4wd offroad alignments, they typically realize you'll be tweaking and using aftermarket stuff.

I didn't do a good job of it, but I want to repeat here, I really hope you didn't take offense to the comments, we really do want to help here. We never know what level people who post are familiar with their trucks and engineering, but I assumed you were at least mechanically inclined because your post about your observations for question 3 was spot on.

Hmm, regarding anything else you can check. Oh, and this might clear things up, 285/70/r17 is pretty common on that offset or even a -12mm offset with no need of a Body mount chop. Personally, cab mount is all you'd need before you get into 35's.

I'll leave you with this thought on 33's. Lots of people think they are "needed", just as lots of people in Jeeps assume 35's or 37's are needed to really offroad. In my 32" OEM size, I've done Imogene Pass, Black Bear Pass, and a handful of "difficult" trails and never really had an issue. Wheelbase is a factor here too, due to breakover, but that's why a Suzuki Samurai on 27's can dominate too.

Decide how far down the rabbit hole you want to go, but consider your end game. My vehicles are weekend warriors, light wheelers, and scenic drivers. I have rock sliders on both, but both are 0 degree steps too cause I have a 7 year old. I'm not going to rock crawl in these vehicles, we have other rigs for that. If you're looking to explore, a little bit of trimming on the setup you have is going to get you out there, enjoying the dirt, and isn't that the point after all? I like mildly built rigs anyways, because typically I run out of skill before the vehicle runs out of capability.

Last thought, are there others in your area? Clubs? Make a few offroading friends and maybe they can help you trim and cut and plan. I really do think you've selected a reasonable setup, which will serve you well, and you're 95% there, just have to make a few tweaks to love it.

 

Thanks for the information!
No offense taken in any way! The reason for my post was specifically to get some ideas - so thank you.

To be clear, this vehicle is mostly a pavement princess. I do mountain bike so I go on fire roads from time to time. I also travel to GA and NC mountains and like to have to the offroad capability should I choose to take that route. I wont act like vanity isnt also a factor. I like the way the truck looks and a more aggressive stance.
I got the suspension mostly due to a emergency braking situation I got into with my 2012 4runner and how poorly it performed. It was quite nerve wracking as I had my whole family in the truck and I swore that my next 4runner would have a better suspension. So - here I am.

At the moment, I see myself sticking to offroad stock size tires with the lift height I currently have. I do transport my elderly parents from time to time and need to have a vehicle height that isnt too hard for them to load into as well.

Lastly - I did try 4x4 specific shops. The shop I went to was considered a specialty shop. He did decent work, but was also a bit on the arrogant side and also VERY expensive (example: wanted to charge me 600 bucks to install control arms). I dont care to give people like this my business so I likely wont be back unless I have a dire need.

Since I am in FL, I assume there arent alot of clubs but I may be wrong....were not exactly the off roading capital of the world. HAHA

Thanks again for your time and responses.

 

Not for the offroading we like.

Lots of mudding there, but I'm happy to skip that type of offroading.