Certified Pre-Owned seems to have issues, but dealers disagree. Thoughts?

TL;DR at the end. I know it's stupid long, but figured I'm kinda frustrated and figured maybe it made sense to offer all context anyway.

First car I've had that was less than 13 years old lmao. I enjoy working on older cars, but their reliability had become such a professional liability. Fell in love the low-tech vibe and solid build of the 4Runners, and finally found one in my budget with good year and mileage. 2023 TRD Sport, X-REAS, 30k miles on it, gold certified, bought it ~10 days ago. With traffic and construction, it was impossible to test drive most local inventory at a sustained 60-65 MPH. Most dealerships were also in areas with nicer roads than where I live. Did my best when test to look for issues, and holy crap were some obviously broken vehicles - broken axle, ridiculously loose front end, warped rotors, cracked windshield, worn out bushings, obviously bad control arms, etc... salesmen bitching about me observing such obvious issues or if I asked to test drive another 4Runner in stock, even lying about selling one to avoid bringing it out.

Destined to be a low info situation, I pick what seems to be the newest, lowest mileage car I could and still got extended warranty, for peace of mind. Super happy. Start driving home in the rain... Jfc, the second I get up to speed (60-65), it's so obvious something is really off. Feels downright dangerous. Front end is shaking like crazy, and I figure it was 1 or two bent rims - no way dealer would sell multiple unbalanced wheels? Call next day and schedule a service visit.

Waiting for visit, more pops up:
-Power steering is extremely variable - goes from very stiff to fairly loose, frequently much stiffer in one direction than the other, even drifting/pulling to one side or the other. It's not consistent, but hot weather and duration of drive seems to play a role.
-Sometimes engine doesn't sound quite smooth, and I've had the car die twice immediately after starting up. (both times were after driving, parking in the sun, quick errand and jumping back in).
-The navigation has repeatedly restarted after I start driving.
-Going over seams on the high way causes the car to lurch front to back hard enough it whips my head into the headrest. Going over rough pavement in the city, I can hear a clank under the car, get a bit of rumble steering, and just feels really rough; larger or less sustained bumps are fine.
-When testing what could be issue with steering, I tried city driving in Hi-4. Did seem to tighten steering, but also caused a lurching issue to be more common.

All and all, a bummer. I take the car back to the dealership, giving them list of what I observed and under what conditions. Service rep can't fit my notes into their system, complains about too many complaints. So, no details got passed to tech lol... They come back saying all 4 wheels were unbalanced, but otherwise everything is perfect. When I press on other concerns, they treat me like I'm crazy to question the mechanic. Apparently it's ridiculous to suggest an expert tech could miss something, despite them missing 4 unbalanced wheels in the first place They say they looked at starter, battery (why? Car started and THEN died..) u-joint. All were fine, suspension looks good. Did not look at spark plugs or check engine vacuum.

I start asking questions out of genuine curiosity on what they did - def would want to keep track. But they're not forthcoming at all. They suggest I take it to a different dealer if I still think somethings wrong, then suggesting I'm just unfamiliar with 4runners, and I must have been driving in Hi-4 instead of RWD, which "causes issues." Cool cool cool.

Head home and gotta admit, having 4 balanced wheels definitely helped. But..

-Car still lurches front-to-back strangely. On sections where the concrete is not totally flat, the suspension is really uncomfortable - way worse than any other car I've driven. City driving on rough pavement is a bizarrely rough ride. I only test drove one other X-REAS suspension, so maybe I fucked myself on that choice.. But in those same sections of road, there can be a clanking sound (perhaps a heat shield), or what sounds like a bushing. I know those hood bushing can be problematic.

-At first steering was really stiff after the visit, but at least it was consistently stiff. Wish I knew what they did. But after a couple days, it regressed. One minute it will be stiff both left-and-right, then easy left-and-right, or maybe easy to the left but stiff to the right... then I hit some rough pavement and it will flips to the opposite? Honestly sucks having the car want to drift into the freeway divider as you deal with rumble steering, and the steering wheel is offering directional resistance that's constantly fluctuating.

-Hot weather seems to be the only unifying thing I've identified. It exacerbates everything. Maybe XREAS and power steering fluids warming and behaving "thinner" is part of the problem? Or the AC is affecting the power steering and the XREAS is a separate issue? I was thinking maybe XREAS's connection between front and back is the issue, but idk how one might look at that.

-Gas mileage "since refill" plummeted to <13 mpg on the first tank, and when I filled it up today, it said range is ~260 miles. I do not run up the RPMs.

-Shifting between park/drive/reverse sometimes has fairly heavy axle clunk, and gotten worse in just 10 days. Ultimately I'm unfamiliar on what's normal with this car, and def not as bad as others I test drove.

So I take it to a 2nd dealership. They took their time, but find nothing wrong, and since they didn't sell me the car they say they want to charge me $200 for their diagnostic fee... then suggest I'm just unfamiliar with what driving a 4Runner is like; this is how they're supposed to be.

I have not owned a 4Runner, but I rented one for a road trip, drove it for a week and fell in love with the car. Admittedly, I have not driven the X-REAS system outside of test drives. I'm sure I'm obsessing on non-issues as I look for what's wrong, but imo 1-3 major things are wrong. Overall soured my experience on getting my dream car. In the past I would run into mechanics who say nothings wrong, and usually I would end up taking the time to fix it myself (control arms, spring mounts, alternator, engine mounts, axle, tie rods, ball joints, serpentine belt, spark plugs, etc., etc.). However, I knew those cars super well and they had 150k-250k mi.

TL;DR
~10 day old purchase of 2023 TRD Sport with XREAS; already taken it to dealers twice, so far they found all 4 tires were unbalanced but claim everything else is "brand new."
-Power steering is very inconsistent, particularly bad in hot weather. Driving over patches of rough/broken pavement seems to often trigger it switching from soft left & stiff right to the opposite. Or maybe stiff both ways and then soft both ways. Can change multiple times in a short drive.
-Freeway can have car want to pull to the right or left.
-Some rumble steering
-Some bad sounds from the front end over rough pavement/potholes etc
-Car seems to lurch front to back on highway. Hitting seams causes me to smack head on headrest. Can feel like an incredibly really hard ride on more minor, but prolonged road conditions at any speed (think patches of rough/broken pavement vs a pot hole).
-Engine sounds a bit uneven to me, mileage is <13mpg and I do not have a heavy foot. Some grittiness through peddle. Has died twice on start up- starts up and then seems to choke out. Was able to start up after getting in and out of car both times.
-Some axle clunk with park>drive>reverse, but I'm not sure if it's bad enough to be an issue.
-Tried Hi-4 and noticed steering tightened up but exacerbated some of the lurching.

I can imagine some of this is normal and maybe I'm being overly critical, but some of this does not feel normal to me at all. I was thinking I could get it on a lift this weekend and was curious for any advice on what I could inspect myself in a low impact way. I have no familiarity with the XREAS system and I wasn't sure if there's a good way to troubleshoot steering without threatening the warranty. Control arms would be easy enough. This car is pretty much brand new and has bumper to bumper for the foreseeable future, so I don't want to start dicking around here. But I don't want to drop it off and get charged $200 because they can't do their fucking job. Honestly I feel like it could torque converter, axle wrap, UCA, U-joint, ball joint. A million things. I really don't know, but would love to take a look at a couple things if people have suggestions.

 

I’m gonna be honest, I didn’t read anything but the TLDR. A lot of what you mentioned is how both ours behave. Did you test drive it before buying? It’s not gonna drive like a car. It’s an old school, BOF vehicle. It’s rides and acts like one and that’s why I love them. Sounds like you don’t.

The only thing that stands out to me is the dying on start up twice. Can you take a picture of your battery terminals and check to make sure the nuts on the horizontal plane are tight? It will die on start up if the battery was recently disconnected. That can happen from those nuts being loose, excessive corrosion, or being completely disconnected. Doubt it’s the third option.

 

I'm going to print this out so I have something new to read the next time I'm taking a huge dump.

 

This is why you ALWAYS leave a new car manual in the bathroom. It'll definitely get read.

 

I’d guess that this truck previously spent hard miles in a rental fleet before you bought it. Either way, it’s pretty clear this is not the vehicle for you. One card you still have to play is good residuals, so maybe just sell or trade and move on. Good luck.

 

I need a TL;DR on the TL;DR.

 

I don't know about the xreas but the rest of it sounds fucked and is probably why it was sold within a year

 

I test drove it twice, but it was not possible to sustain freeway speeds; you could peaked around 55, but that's it, roads were in good condition, not long enough to experience the power steering issues. It was not super hot out, which I feel makes things the most obvious. I've rented a 4Runner for a week before as part of a work thing and I really loved the way it drove. I find this to be a very different experience.

 

Sounds like it. Used cars are such a gamble nowadays, “certified” or not. It’s amazing that used cars pull the prices they do considering all of the unknowns. It’s almost financially safer to buy private party for the reason it might be easier to get the real history from a real owner.

Stock 4runners don’t exactly have the most “locked in” feeling at highway speeds. It’s got light steering compared to most other vehicles. But, it’s not normal to have inconsistent power steering force one direction to another. The driveshaft may have a bit of lash that may make a clicking sound when going from park to drive, especially if you don’t have a firm foot on the brake during that shift. But it’s not normal to have a bunch of other clunks driving around town.

This just seems like a collision repair was completed right before it was put up for sale, by a shop that probably knew they wouldn’t be answering directly to an owner. Maybe even the dealer itself completed the repair immediately prior to it being put up for sale.

It’s funny the reaction of the salesperson. They know when they have a customer that notices problems. It basically means they aren’t going to make an easy sale. They’re gonna dump that customer as fast as possible, especially when chances are good the next prospect will be clueless and buy it without “pesky” questions.

 

There's no way on earth you should be having the amount of issues you are experiencing on a 1 year old 4R. I don't know if the selling dealer will give you any satisfaction - you may need to lawyer up.

Lesson learned - do NOT purchase a used vehicle without being able to complete an acceptable test drive that meets ALL your requirements; and I would add - take it for an independent pre-purchase inspection/evaluation. If not, walk away.

 

Your odd stiff steering makes me wonder if the 4WD is not disengaging. Odd, stiff, inconsistent steering feel on high traction surface would be a perfect match.

Stalling after start could be the ECU having to relearn after a reset, but seems a stretch.

Lurching over expansion joints is a wheelbase length resonance and I will sometimes get a rodeo thing going. Tire pressure?

Poor Alignment could explain the tendency to drift left or right.

Has this vehicle been in an accident?

 

Yeah. So after reading your comments, I started to feel very suspicious. The problems are just too widespread and stretching across electrical and mechanical imo to make sense for a 1 year old car. I just checked all the vehicle history services, and 1 shows a major accident. They gave me 2, and copy I just bought shows some fuckery on their part + did not show an accident. I also got the service details sent to me after reaching out to their manager and it was... not at all what I requested or what they presented to me when I picked the car up. Complete fraud up and down. I guess lawyer up is right. What a ridiculous waste of time, money and energy. Real shame. Will look for an independent collision repair specialist and see what's up. I wonder if there's frame damage. Certified gold my ass.

 

Welcome to the forum . But yeah. Sounds like a lot of things not disclosed to you. So yes, I would consult a legal specialist for your options. There was something not reported and and half assed repaired. Of course only my internet opinion.

 

Sorry to hear about your issues. After reading initial post (yes, the entire thing) my thoughts were flooded car or major damage. It is possible it was a wreck that sat outside prior to getting fixed, that would explain electrical issues.

Some advice:

1. Focus on a few clear issues, having too many dilutes your message. For example, harsh ride over bad pavement is Xreas suspension.

2. Get a full picture prior to taking action. Take it to independent body shop and mechanic shop, explain your situation and pay them to provide you reports. When dealing with courts, Toyota Corporate, etc. it does not matter what you think, you need to always back it with expert opinion.

3. Negotiate first before going to lawyers. You have a key advantage - this was sold as an no-accident, certified car and it is clear that dealer committed some/multiple fraud in selling such vehicle. Lemon law and courts are expensive and it is a prolonged process, you will be out of thousands and it won't be resolved for years. I recommend after doing #2, making appointment with the General Manager of the dealership that sold it to you, presenting facts, and asking them to buy it back. At that point you have all the advantages - they don't have to spend any money on lawyer, they are not yet in trouble with Toyota Corporate, so GM may decide to contain this. Likelihood of success depends on strength of your case as documented in #2 and at least in some part on your charisma (you have to appear to be reasonable, they see all kinds).

4. If #3 is not successful (and get all answers in writing) contact Toyota Corporate and file complaint about such truck getting certified (assuming you purchased from Toyota dealership, if not this step is not available to you). They might intervene and force buy-back.

5. Prior to going to lawyer, you need to show good-faith attempt to resolve this. Make sure you have no less than 3 documented attempts to resolve the same major issue. See #1 in deciding which.

6. Find lawyer that specializes in lemon law. Many will take your case, but you want one with specific expertise. Again, lawyer is the last resort and the LEAST cost-effective way to resolve this. Keep your priorities clear - you want to get out while minimizing out of pocket expenses. This will cost you something, but if you turn this into a legal fight it will be expensive.

Good luck. You will need it.

 

Certified pre-owned from Toyota is one thing, but "certified gold" from Dick's used cars is another thing completely. You might not have a leg to stand on. You didn't do your due diligence with a PPI, vehicle history report, or even a proper test drive. Sorry to say this, but you might be fucked.

 

I would get rid of it if it wasn’t certified pre owned. And shop for a TRD Off Road or SR5 / premium or non premium. This way you don’t have to deal with the X-REAS stuff as it’s notoriously an issue as well. Unless you really want specifically a TRD Sport.

This is typically why I avoid used cars to be honest.

 

It is a Toyota gold certified pre-owned car with Toyota platinum extended warranty. I also paid for 2 vehicle checks + the one provided by Toyota. My bad

Idk why people defend predatory, anti-consumer practices and shitty dealers. Buying a car shouldn’t feel like combat. It’s the most expensive thing many people buy, yet it’s absurdly opaque and allows for open deception if not out and out fraud. Had one guy try and sell me 4Runner with an obviously broken axel, another lecturing me on how I have “run out of time” to look at the car because their techs are so thorough and excellent, and it was wasting everyone’s time. I had to point out the windshield was cracked, sun roof didn’t work, and rotors were warped to shit. Most people know far less than me about cars, I did my best and still got screwed. Nobody walking into a dealership has the requisite tools to do a thorough examination of a car on a lot, and most mechanics suck too and make the same mistakes. Dealers make it a practice to screw over people, and if you try to push back they often times just won’t do business with you. I can’t wait for the dealership model to die. Right now inventory is low, dealers are rife with thirsty buyers. They somehow get cars through certification without fixing vehicles, knowing corporate will foot the bill if something major happens. But until there’s a critical component failure, they don’t even let you get repairs under the warranty you pay for, even charging you money when they fail their job and can’t find what’s wrong. Simp away though.

 

I’m probably going to trade it in. Just don’t have the money to do it rn. Whole point of buying a Toyota was reliability and this car is clearly going to have ongoing problems for the rest of its life. Warranty doesn’t fix lack of availability.

 

Exactly.

A certified car from Joe Shmoe doesn't mean shit. Joe Shmoe deemed it certified himself to try and fool you into thinking its been through a rigorous inspection prior to sale.

However, if it was certified pre-owned from a Toyota dealer they would not be allowed to sell it if it was in a major accident with frame damage or over a certain # of miles. For the cars that qualify they would be required to do a very detailed inspection before selling and fix anything that failed that inspection beforehand.

Moral of the story is to be very careful buying a used car from anyone. Always do your own research and check multiple car history reports. Take an extended test drive. If they don't let you, walk away. There is some peace of mind buying certified pre-owned from a Toyota dealer but you will pay extra for it and you should still do all of the above just to cover your own ass.

 

Just saw this post after writing mine.

If it's certified pre-owned by a Toyota dealer then they are not allowed to sell it if it was in a major accident with frame damage. Did the vehicle history report that showed the accident give details on the extent of the damage and/or what was fixed?

 

Ignore haters. What kind of accident is on the report? This may help determine the issue. It also might force buyback as dealerships are not allowed to certify trucks with certain types of accident damage.

I recommend you focus on what appears to be binding in the steering and navigation restarting at random. Don't start with intermittent or subjective problems, as this will always result in "cannot reproduce" or "this is normal". When dealing with the dealership service advisor, keep in mind that you are now cost to them and their job is to minimize it. If they can discourage you or make you act unhinged, then it is much easier to dismiss you as unreasonable customer acting out due to post-purchase regrets. Always ask for loaner and always insist to go on a test drive where you demonstrate the issue. Always insist work order reflects what was done and that your original complaint recorded accurately. If possible, record the issue occurring (e.g., infotainment shutting off) so you have proof.

 

This will cost you a lot, as nobody going to give you a good trade-in offer for a truck that has accident on the record AND that is being dumped shortly after you purchased it. It screams LEMON. You will likely get less than auction value trade-in offer, nothing for extended warranty, etc. So anywhere $5K to $10K loss. More so, you have not exhausted all your other, much better options. With an official Certified car you have Toyota Corporate on your side when attempting to resolve issues, in many cases it is more effective than lawyers.

 

It did not list it as a minor accident, but also didn’t list damage. The accident was near where I believe the suspension issues are (front right). Car was out of commission for a while. I took some things out to look around and found a lot of signs that another poster could be right and that it sat outside without a hood on. Dealerships do a pretty good job of cleaning engine bays these days tho lol.

 

GREAT advice.

I have been through a lemon buyback process twice and your steps are right on.

Pick the top issues and drop the fuzzier ones
Have evidence or expert opinion
State what your goal is (buyback or repair)
Get a lemon lawyer
Be professional and respectful no matter how frustrated you get
Don't back down until you get satisfaction

Jason

 

Here's how much I thought I knew.....I thought the X-RES was only available on the Limiteds.

 

X3

 

I am in NO WAY defending these assholes. They can all go out of business and I don't care. It's exactly why I choose to NOT do business with dealerships. I truly hope that this awful situation turns out in the best way possible for you. Even better would be if you can take one of these assholes down.

 

Does Lemon apply to certified pre owned or used vehicles?

 

The Sport is a sort of faux Limited. Same body panels, bumpers, and suspension, but lacking the full time 4wd and all the nicer interior amenities that come on a Limited. I always wondered why Toyota bothered making this model.

 

@rorunner23 - was this purchased at a Toyota dealership?