Alignment with Mild Lift - Caster Issues

Starting this as it's own thread.

My lift us as follows:
Front - Bilstein 5100 set at 1.85"
Rear - Bilstein 5100 with 1" Bilstein Springs and 10mm OME Spacer o. Drivers side.

Here are my specs. Before is after lift. Current is after alignment


@nimby was questioning if the alignment folks had adjusted both cams. Based on what I am seeing, I'm convinced they did.

These pictures are taken from rear of vehicle facing forward (easier to see both cams

Drivers rear cam


Drivers front cam


Passenger rear cam


Passenger front cam



As you can see, the Drivers side rear cam is fully extended. The passenger side Rear cam is almost fully extended.
Front cams are pulled in a little to get camber in spec.

So it seems like I don't have much more I can do with caster without wrecking camber.

@nimby thoughts?
@jasonmcelroy would love to see where your cams are set.

 

On your drivers side:

The rear cam is pushed all the way out (as it should be), but the front cam is not pulled all the way in. It looks to me like it should be rotated roughly 90 degrees to the left.

On the passenger side, both the front and rear look off. Rear cam should go another 60 degrees to the left and front cam maybe 75 degrees to the right?

Even with your cams like this, I still think you can hit proper camber and toe numbers, but I'll let some others chime in to give their opinions as well.

 

I agree that the passenger side has way more room to adjust. However, I think he set is like that so there would be less than .5 degrees difference between the driver and passenger sides with the passenger side being a little higher to make up for the road crown.

The Drivers side seems to be the limiting factor. I recall him showing me the front drivers cam when he did the alignment showing me that when he pulled it in, it would negatively affect camber. Might explain why the drivers rear is all the way out.

Now that I have been looking more into Toyota IFS alignments, it makes sense why he was focused on the driver front cam when showing me. At that time, I was like "Uh, okay".

However, I am not alignment expert. Just a guy with too many tools. I'd love to hear what others think as you suggested.

 

I had basically the same lift on my 17 but with Eibach parts. I had the alignment shop set the caster at 4 then back it down until toe and camber were zero. I think I ended up at 3.4 caster.

 

@HarrisNC thanks. Since the Drivers side cam is all the way out on the rear, I'm thinking the front is also set way out as this is where camber lined up.

My first alignment was with only 250 miles on the vehicle after I lifted it and replaced the wheels and tires.

What I'm trying to figure out is if I should get UCAs and then get it aligned or try again before the UCAs go in. I need to get an alignment as I just added a rear 10mm spacer and am going to put in a .25" front spacer on the Drivers side to correct some of the lean.

 

Notwithstanding how the cam adjusters physically look, how did the vehicle drive after the lift and alignment? Are you asking about this because the vehicle drives weird, or you just want more caster?

 

@glwood54 For most around town driving, it drives fine. On the highway, it wanders a bit and needs little corrections constantly. I am trying to get more caster to solve this issue

I've got a trip to Santa Fe in October and am trying to sort this out ( or improve ) before then.

 

With the 1.8" of lift in the front, it seems you're near the limit of what the oem UCAs can provide as far as caster adjustments. With more changes to come, and if you can swing the cost, I'd say new UCAs and realignment are in order, but that's just me.

 

After thinking about how much the 99 TJ cost to build, another 600 for UCAs on the 4runner is not a big deal. Plus, I drive it way more than the TJ.

 

Here's some pics of my cams for reference. I have a similar lift, about 1.7" front and 1.5" rear with OEM UCAs. I was able to get decent alignment numbers. Front cam pics from the front, and rear cam pics from the rear.

(Also like you, I tried to fix my lean with the 10mm rear spacer. It did just about nothing. That's a mystery to me...)

Alignment:


Drivers rear:


Drivers front:


Pass rear:


Pass front:

 

I just took a look at my cams.

They look really close to @auspilot except my passenger front looks more like his driver front.

Since we all have similar lift height and @auspilot, @HarrisNC and I are able to get quite a bit higher caster numbers the only other thing I can think of (besides having them match the cams of @auspilot and I) is your lift height.

Are you sure you aren't higher up front than you think you are? Are your Bilsteins on the 3rd setting from the bottom and is your lower spring perch the proper orientation?

What is your center of hub to bottom of fender measurement?

 

Thanks @auspilot I would be thrilled with those numbers. I'm pretty confident they could get the passenger side there. Drivers is a little more of a challenge

Looks like our drivers side rears are set at the max but your front is neutral whereas mine is pretty extended. If they can keep camber in the green, I'm certain willing to try again.

BTW- I have very similar results as you do with the rear spacer. Pretty much did nothing. I hoping the front 1/4" drivers trim packer that is on the way here from Cornfed does something to take the lean out. Since it should give me 1/2" lift on the front drivers side, this is probably gonna make the caster even harder to dial in.

Since I have to open the front suspension for the shim, my thought was why not replace the UCAs while I'm in there. I'll spend the 600 to 700 for UCAs but if I don't have to, I would prefer not to.

 

@nimby. I am 99.9% sure I'm on the 3rd clip setting.

My measurements are (full tank)
DF 21-3/4
PF 22-1/4

Perch is on correctly. I' ve had 5100s on my last 3 vehicles

 

We're close up front. I'm at 21 1/2.

 

Pic of spring perch

 

Yep, that's the correct orientation.

 

Are you opposed to moving your cams on your own to match @auspilot's and then taking it in for an alignment to have them fine tune the camber and toe?

You also might want to think about purchasing a lifetime alignment from a reputable shop. Is there an offroad shop close to you that does theses sorts of things? 3 alignments usually pays for it and you can go in once or twice a year to keep things straight. I always thought it was a pretty good deal for those of us offroaders that tend to tinker with suspension.

 

Actually, let me amend what I said above.

If you can only go back to the first shop that aligned your vehicle, try moving the cams on your own beforehand.

However, if you have the ability to go to a reputable offroad shop, let them take a stab at the alignment and see what they get out of it. If they do a good job, purchase a lifetime alignment with them.

 

Thanks @nimby I would love to find a shop that offers a lifetime alignment.

Yes, I am 100% willing to move the cams myself. I do all my own work but I don't have an alignment rack. I know you can use strings and levels etc... and I do on my old Jeep, but that is really limited to toe adjustments only.

If anyone in the Houston (or North of Houston) area knows of a good off road shop that offers a lifetime alignment, let me know

 

Not to hijack this thread but after several alignments I was thinking about having another one my caster is currently 2.9 with the exact same setup as the op.
And speaking to a different guy he was saying I should probably be able to get close to 3.3 or 3.5

Does anybody know if I would see a substantial difference in handling?

 

I just installed Eibach pro front coil overs. This is the results of my alignment. In order to get the caster in spec would I need to put new UCA to get more adjustment? I have heard that there is notheing the alignment shop.

 

Do u have kdss?

 

Yes

 

Just bite the bullet and get some UCAs. I didn’t do it on my Tacoma, went ahead and did it this time on the 4Runner and so glad I did. Alignment was a breeze and ride so smooth. I have Eibach 2.0 & JBAs btw.

 

Cool thanks for the info. I'm probably going to be getting some UCA's. I did read a reiview and intal on Trail4runners. Seems like a good option for the price.

 

I have the same amount of lift as the OP, but done with springs. I did add JBA UCA's last year and it has still been a chore to get decent caster. Right now I am at 3.9 for both, but it has been aligned 8 different times. Yes, 8. 6 by Firestone (actually 3 initial visits and 3 return visits because the steering wheel was crooked each time) and then some independent shop visits. It tracks fairly well on the highway now, but the slightest crosswind really pushes it around. I feel like setting the cams all back to zero and starting over because it's like every attempt to align it is compounding the previous shop's errors.