To Hybrid or Not Hybrid

I'm very much assuming the new 4Runner will come in a hybrid model, just like the Tundra and Tacoma.

But was watching some videos on older Toyota hybrids and the cost of replacing the hybrid battery is quite expensive.

10+ years or 150,000 miles is what Toyota warrants. If I keep my next 4Runner as long as I kept my current one, the battery replacement going to set me back $4k at some point, which is super hefty cost for an older vehicle. Assuming the cost of the battery doesn't go up, and I'm still capable of popping it in myself.

 

I see a lot of prius's on marketplace with well over 200k, I wonder if those are on the original batteries. They even use them as taxis in a lot of places.

The upside of a hybrid though, is if you have a hybrid with a dead battery you still have a gasoline vehicle.

 

Gives one something to consider if hybrid is in their future.

 

https://youtu.be/NBVMuT7gwyo?si=v6btuysDb4AhF2r1

Full disclosure, I didn't watch the whole video, but I skimmed the comments and saw multiple people saying they have over 250k on 00's Toyota hybrids with the original battery. I really wouldn't worry about it.

 

I'm old-school, and just fundamentally opposed to the idea of EVs and hybrids. We're not going to run out of fossil fuel in my lifetime or my kids' lifetime, so they can bury me in my ICE vehicle...

 

200k miles in 5 years(Taxis and Uber) is a lot different than 200k miles in 15 years. Actually their driving 40k miles a year helps the battery's health. Time kills batteries. Taxis won't care if they had to buy one more battery pack after say 200k or 300k miles.
And a Prius with a dead hybrid battery does not drive, you have to get a new battery. Wish it was that simple.

 

OP, the hybrid system in 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra is not about fuel economy, it is about more power. I like hybrids, they help the motor unlike the turbo that stresses the motor. I would pounce on a hybridized 4.0L in a new 4Runner but sadly that combo is not happening.

 

I'd say a good chance the fuel savings will pay for itself alongside some perks: (that I can think of)

• lower fuel use when idling (cheaper HVAC when car camping?)
  
• enabling that 1500W inverter (probably an option)
• not having to worry about a serpentine belt (I'll bet the accessories are driven electrically)
• longer range between fill-ups (if they don't take the opportunity to downsize the tank - I'd be lying if I said I wasn't jealous of the Highlander Hybrid's est. 600 mile range.)
  
• brakes last much longer, no starter or alternator to break either

Let's say we're comparing to $3/gallon gas, you drive 150k miles (I believe the battery warranty is 10 year/150k miles) and this hypothetical hybrid 4Runner only averages 20 MPG over our current's 17. (of course all these numbers will vary and I'm ignoring inflation/deflation in this entire post.)

Cost difference will be just under $4k.

Dealer replacement out of warranty for a decade-old Highlander probably will be in the $5-8k range today so that's a negative if it fails right at 10yr/150k miles. (would have to check if the refundable battery core charge is included or not)

You can cut that price down healthily going aftermarket and there seems to be a reasonably healthy aftermarket for hybrid batteries in these. (even saw a Li-ion retrofit for older Prius/Highlanders with NiMH battery chemistry, pricey but I'd love to consider it - now availability for decade old Hyundai/Kia hybrids...)

Especially since these packs are a lot smaller than PHEV/EVs and easier to handle.

And that negative/maybe break-even-at-best scenario is assuming it fails right at 151k miles, that gas stays at $3/gal the entire time and the other perks don't save money. Of course batteries are more vulnerable to time than mileage (shoutout to the 450k mile '20 RAV4 Hybrid) but so far I don't think it's been an epidemic.

Unfortunately, we won't be able to benefit from the crazy-simple, utterly bullet-proof planetary power-split/eCVT design in Toyota/Ford lighter-duty hybrid vehicles so either way transmission fluid changes will likely be the same.

Edit: I forgot that this also assumes unchanged battery cost and labor which I'd expect the former to drop and be more accessible and the latter to increase.

 

You will hate the eCVT

 

why is that? Every review I have seen has been overwhelmingly positive. We just put a deposit on a grand highlander hybrid w ecvt trans.

 

yeah tried a vehicle with one and it’s very weird experience. I didn’t care for it.

 

You underestimate my un-fun driving experience tolerance!

 

There is no shifting, it just goes.

 

I just use a taxi as a reference point, the ones I see on marketplace and the commenters on the Car Care Nut video were not taxi users.

Good point about the Prius not working right if the battery is dead, I did not know that. I thought it would work like a regular car, although a little slower and less efficient.

And like you said in your following post, I like the idea of the hybrid to assist in torque, not necessarily just mileage, in a 4x4 application.

 

Right? Hell, we all drive 4Runners!

 

If you drive a Prius say 8k miles a year, the hybrid battery WILL die. Multiple examples are there of dead Priuses before 100k miles.

 

I would think if one only drives 8k miles a year, why even bother with a Prius.

If I only drove 8K a year I'd probably daily an 80 series or big block Suburban, lol.

 

Some people have messed up minds and ideas, they do that.

 

Say you bought a Dodge Viper 15 years ago. If you took care of it, it would be fine now, and it will be fine for the next 15 years too. You can't say that about a fast Tesla. That's the biggest problem with batteries, time and less miles kill them.

 

I'm more old school than that, I walk.

 

I'm sticking to fuel-only vehicles for as long as I possibly can, no shiny paints, body cladding, or blue-edged chrome badging or electricity tv-ad sounds will f*ck with me. Only vroom-vroom for me.

 

So I'll hate the eCVT because it just goes. That's how an automatic transmission works in general.

I was hoping for an actual issue or thought provoking point I did not consider.

 

Drive it and then we will talk

 

The best way to increase the reliability and longevity of a vehicle is to add additional layers to it's complexity..........everyone knows this. Years into an apocalypse, it's the most complicated, battery operated and computer controlled vehicles that will be most sought after by the scavengers.

 

This is what I felt when I test drove new CRV. I was expecting it to "change" gear but it didn't with the CVT. I am not sure if it was because of that, but it felt slow to me. Overall I didn't enjoy the driving experience.

 

You can feel the gears change though, right? I mean sure no one is changing gears manually but you know roughly speaking which gear you are on -- with 5 speed for sure.
Honestly it also depends on how its designed. I didn't have any issues with outback, which also has a CVT. But the CRV just felt odd.

 

The ratios change but it definitely doesn't have distinctive gears in normal mode.

I don't mind the more direct driving, it's been a while since I got the chance to drive a Highlander Hybrid. If someone said I had to live with a Honda CVT (generally no fake shifts) or Subaru (generally fake shifts) and they're responsible for it long-term then I can live with it no problem.

I'd prefer knowing gears are in there as opposed to a metal chain or belt. Heck, EV's (most commonly) lack multi-speed gearboxes.

Years into the apocalypse we're going to be on bikes and horses. Even a Land Cruiser will be a struggle to keep going medium-long-term if some sort of supply chain for quality fuel, 12V batteries, tires isn't there. (that was a tough suspension of disbelief for me in The Last of Us with them using 20 year-old gas but that's just me being a nerd.)

And if say, it's not an apocalypse but a gasoline shortage, EV/PHEV owners will come out ahead. (bonus points for PHEV's usually having better sealed tanks to keep gas in there fresh longer) and of course, the opposite like the long-term failure of a power grid will be an issue for everyone except off-grid folks. Will gas pumps even operate? I imagine most stations wouldn't have a generator.

 

So when you floor your 4Runner on the highway, don't you feel rpm dropping when gear changes? It has gears, but changed automatically. CVT doesn't have that.

 

We have a 2013 Highlander Hybrid that my daughter drives. We bought it with ~150k on the clock and a failing battery (great negotiation leverage). The battery (3rd party) cost me 3K and an afternoon of my time. For me it was in the same range (probably cheaper) as having a transmission drop and need to be replaced. Given Toyota reliability (we also have a Tundra) and being a leader in Hybrid design, it was an easy decision for us.

 

If your rpm drops when you floor it you have a broken 4runner.