Finally! New Wheels and Tires!

It took a ridiculous 20 months of ownership, but I finally got it done.

17" TRD wearing Michelin CrossClimate E Load.

I detailed my thinking behind this choice of tire in Post #41 here https://www.4runners.com/threads/load-range-e-tires.24062/page-2#post-320813

But to summarize: 3-Peak snow rated. Great user ratings in all categories including rain, off road, ride comfort etc. (highest average rating of all 3-Peak tires in this size on Tire Rack). Tough E Load construction for puncture resistance and curb/pothole/rock bashing. Plus Michelin's rep for quality.

Early Impressions

Ride:

Surprisingly smooth. Actually smoother than the craptastic OEM Bridgestones on 20" rims. I'd hoped the taller sidewall would offset some of the extra stiffness from being E Load, but didn't expect the ride to feel so good. Maybe it's a combination of more sidewall and the fresh tread. Though the OEM tires only had 13K miles so weren't that worn. Regardless, it's good. Really pleased about this.

Handling:

Feels slower to react, but also stickier and more planted in the corners. More composed. And the same lack of body roll that I'm used to from the XREAS.

Acceleration and Braking:

I feel like I'm losing some of each, yet also sense more traction under braking. The OEM tires and wheels were stuffed in the back of the truck, adding a few hundred pounds, so maybe this had some impact. (More on the weight issue below).

Tracking:

Straight line stability at highway speeds seemed a bit better and was certainly no worse. Maybe the wider stance from the TRD wheels helped with that.

Tire Noise:

More noise, but not a big difference. I'm guessing they'll get noisier as the tread wears.

Foul Weather and Off Road Performance:

Don't know yet.

Looks:

They look good to me! And beefy! The way wheels and tires should look on a real truck. I was worried the red TRD lettering would be too flashy, but it seems kinda normal. The gray TRDs might have looked better, with more contrast, but I didn't think about it at the time and got these matte black ones for $719 with tax and shipping from a Toyota dealer. Yep, you can buy Toyota quality OEM TRDs for much less than a lot of aftermarket and replica wheels.

MPG:

Too soon to tell, but the computer reported 18.2 mpg on my mixed highway and city test drive, which is no worse than I would have expected. Especially since it included some pretty heavy throttle. So we'll see. But I'm not expecting a dramatic reduction in long term mpg.

Regarding rotating weight...

...and thus issues such as mpg and acceleration: I was shocked to see my digital bathroom scale reporting 74 pounds for the OEM wheel and tire. I weighed one when unloading them into my garage after my test drive. I find it hard to believe the OEM setup is that heavy, but this scale is accurate when weighing people. If it is true, that means the OEM 20" rim weighs a crazy 39 pounds. Either that or the tires are much heavier than their reported weight of 35 pounds. Or some combination thereof.

I was unable to weigh the new TRD wheel and tire setup because they'd been mounted. But the reported specs would put them at 75 pounds -- 25 for the wheel and 50 for the tire.

I did expect that the extra weight of these new tires would be partly offset by the lower weight of the 17" rims. And so I realized that the fear or regret some people express about going E Load was based on the big weight difference and stiffer ride they'd get compared to standard tires on their stock 17" rims. I and my truck are already used to shorter sidewalls and the weight of 20" rims, so the difference should be less noticeable. In any case, if total weight truly is a wash -- Wow. What I'm starting to wonder is whether my experience getting similar mpg but feeling slower acceleration and handling reflects a combination of similar total weight combined with more of that weight being at the outer circumference.

Disappointments:

So far, only that they need better balancing. They are very smooth at 50-55 mph, which is where a lot of 4Runner owners seem to have balancing issues. But the truck gets the jiggles at 60-75. My local shop is excellent, but they don't have a RoadForce type machine. Fingers crossed this can be solved with one of those.

 

New tires always feel so good.

They look great, so 265-70-17 and no lift right?

I like it. I’m pretty sure once my 285’s wear out, I’m gonna have the lift removed and go back to 265’s. Probably stick with E ply rated since I drive over sharp lava rocks.

 

Yes, I went stock size for the tires. I guess I wouldn't mind upsizing for the speedometer correction and better looks, but those are small things. I didn't want to deal with rubbing -- and especially even more weight and balancing issues. Plus, I don't feel the need for any more ground clearance.

No lift. The truck is all stock other than these wheels and tires, and the OEM LED fog lights the dealer added at time of purchase.

 

couple more pics added to orig post, inc closeup ^

 

UPDATE: Vibrations worsened a bit on day 2. Spread to the steering wheel and started at lower speeds. My shop will send it out for balancing on a better machine. They have a very basic system, so we knew the first attempt might not work. Agreed it would be good for me to drive it a few days to let everything seat/settle, so the next balancing job has better odds of sticking. Will let y'all know how it goes. Obv, if these won't balance well I'll need to try a different tire.

 

UPDATE #2 -- after a few hundred miles of use:

The Bad:

Local shop (great place) sent the wheels for balancing on a new Snap On balancer, which helped, but I gather this isn't a RoadForce type system and some vibration remains at highway speeds. It's far from terrible, but it's also not right. Truck won't recognize the new TPMS sensors, even though the shop programmed it a couple times using a Snap On tool (inc right in front of me). Shop's tool seemed to work on its end, but my dash keeps saying "Registering Each TPWS sensor." It just never completes the process despite me taking several 20/30/45/75 minute trips already. So now my shop is going to send it to Toyota for both rebalance and TPMS programming.

The unknown:

Shop also pushed out the caster for me, and I can feel the difference in the front end wanting to self center. Good. However, too soon to know how the tires will be for highway use. Not sure about tracking / straight-line stability. Have needed more steering correction than I'd like, but it's been super windy. So dunno what's what yet.

The Good:

My main concerns about going E Load are assuaged so far. They are actually smoother than the 20" OEM tire/wheel setup over typical road imperfections. Over larger bumps the sensation is just that the suspension has a firmer tune. I like this. Very happy with the ride.

Not at all noisy (recognizing the tread is still quite new).

I am not noticing a big difference in weight. As reported in an earlier post, the total weight is prob close to the OEM setup due to heaviness of the 20" OEM rims. I sense some hit to acceleration, but not much. Braking is much improved. Traction and composure around corners is much improved. Only driven once in the wet, but it seemed great.

Just took a 100 mile roundtrip route that I've taken many times, and MPG was decent. Mostly country roads with 45-55 MPH limits. Was fighting a lot of wind, so not sure how much of a hit that caused. But bottom line is I got in the high 19s when ordinarily I'd get high 20/maybe 21 mpg. Will report back when I've got more miles under more normal conditions.

 

Are the wheels brand new? I have never head of anyone having that much trouble balancing a stock size tire. By now they should have it narrowed down to which one has the issue…one would think. Sorry for your troubles. That sucks.

 

Looks great

 

Thanks. Wheels are new OEM from a Toyota dealer. I don't want to exaggerate the problem. My local shop has some ancient machine and even then it was only an issue at 60-75 mph. (It got worse the second day but then was better again on the third day and since -- guess the beads seated better etc.)

Now it is better still since being sent out to another shop with a new Snap On balancer. It's just not all the way there yet at highway speeds. Thus the plan to get a RoadForce type balancing, which is something I've always done on any car I cared about inc. ones with wheel sets easier to balance because they were low profile and lighter to begin with (eg on my two BMWs)

I don't find this experience surprising and don't think it indicates a defect with any wheel or tire. 4Runners are known to be sensitive to balance, these tires are heavier than many because they are E Load, and more of that weight is at the outer circumference because of the smaller rims than stock. I was actually pleasantly surprised that they got the balance as good as they did without a RoadForce system.

That said, I will be bummed and prob try to return the tires if the vibration is not solved at highway speeds. It's not something I'm willing to live with long term. I still have the orig wheel set so can bolt them back on until this issue is resolved. Spring is coming so the crappyness of the OEM tires won't matter as much.

 

Balancing never fixes slightly out of round tires, uneven wear, bent wheels, or a wheel to tire mismatch. The only balancer that can fix a wheel to tire mismatch vibration is a road force machine along with a tire tech that knows how to spin a tire to the correct position on the wheel for an optimum match.

discount tire for instance knows how to do this and has the machinery.

 

This could turn into a Discount Tire ad real quick. lol

 

Oh dear....let me share.

Actually, I won't go into detail. I'll just say that I've never in 30+ years of owning 18 vehicles had the steering shake problems I've had with my 4R. Three different sets of wheels, two different tires. Temp outside seems to be a factor but none of five different shops now can figure it out. At this point I'm guessing there are different parts on different 4R's that determine this. Some people have zero issues no matter what, while some never get it figured out. The amount of tire balance/steering shake threads on the internet is staggering for 4R's.

OP your truck looks great and I hope everything works out.

 

Thanks and yes, there do seem to see more balancing issues with 4Rs. I’m reassured in that I had no issues over 13k miles on the OEM wheels and tires, which has included two rotations and all kinds of weather and uses.

But if RoadForce doesn’t work these new tires are going to be replaced. I think they have a 60 day warranty so hopefully that’s honored. It would be a shame because otherwise they so far seem to be exactly what I wanted.

PS I fiddled with the TPMS settings again to try to re initialize the registration and voila, they are now recognized. All four plus the OEM spare are now being read.

Also, not windy today and tracking on the highway was good. So progress.

 

The tires look great!

The balancing and vibration issues are so common, yet sporadic. It's just weird.

I have had intermittent wobble back when I had the OEM wheels. With aftermarket wheels, I have only had issues when tires were out of balance due to losing weights, or having mud caked in the wheel.

I have also had the rebalanced at a chain that was unable to get them right, and then took them to an off-road shop and they were perfect. This is something to consider before giving up on rebalancing.

I am also very meticulous with how I tighten the lugs when I rotate them. Most shops probably just stick the tire on there and send it with an impact. This shouldn't be and issue with OEM or hub centric wheels, but you never know.

Either way, I hope it gets resolved for you!

 

Update: Sadly, these E Load Michelins are going back whence they came. I have ordered Pirelli Scorpion AT Plus as replacements.

I'm sorry to part ways with E Load toughness, but I still had steering wheel shimmy and body vibrations even after RoadForce balancing at a performance shop by what I believe to be an expert tech. I was able to get the vibrations down by lowering the PSI, but still had the wheel shimmy and the resulting PSI was below what was recommended by the conversion chart you'd linked to before.

Maybe it's just the weight or tread design and not the balancing -- may never know.

Anyhow, the Scorpions check a lot of boxes too -- excellent user reviews in all categories (and based on a lot of miles driven), 3 Peak snow rating, and nice looks. I suspect they would not be a first choice for serious off roaders, but my off roading is infrequent and light duty. I just want something that's not incompetent off road, and these get very good reviews in that category. And in trade for E Load toughness I should get back some of the MPG and acceleration I lost with the Michelins. Can't have everything!

Will update after I've put some miles on these guys!

 

That sucks. Hopefully the Scorpions fit the bill. They're good looking tires as well.

 

Update: Not a great pic, but this gives some idea of what it looks like with the Scorpion ATs. @Trdorp22 had asked for a pic, so here it is

 

Thats like dating fat chicks after marrying a model.

 

thanks for the pic. They look good.

overall how would you say the ride is and how is the noise level?

 

Looks great. I was SUPER happy upgrading to Load E tires. Zero issues when installed correctly.

 

Noise a non issue. Ride is bouncier than with the E Load Michelins these replaced. The Michelins felt like they made the suspension both more damped and firmer. But it’s definitely not a bad ride in any way. I still plan to Road Force balance them to deal with the intermittent shimmy at highway speeds, but unlike the Michelins I’m not getting any body vibration.

 

Nice looking tire, and they look great on your ride.

 

Thanks Slug. I really like the combo of a Limited with 17” TRD rims and more aggressive tires. 20” OEM rims are kinda dumb.

 

Better pic. I think TRD rims and AT tires make a Limited look right

 

I think you'll love them. I have these on my 22 4Runner OR and they are smooth as silk, no vibration at any speed.

 

Thx Alan. Have you had much experience with them in the snow? Rain? Wet and snow performance are high on my list of priorities. Am hoping these are at least decent off road, and either good or great at everything else.

 

They are very impressive in the snow, which is the main reason I got them, so no having to switch to snow tires any longer. I got my 4Runner in February, and had the Pirelli's put on almost immediately as we were in full winter then. No complaints, they offer outstanding grip. I find they also ride and handle great, and they are as quiet as the original tires that came on the 4Runner, which is quite amazing to me.
I had tried this tire originally on my 2016 Tacoma I owned previously, and I went through a full winter with them and was very surprised at how much grip they generated in all kinds of snow and ice conditions.
They are great in the rain as well. I've never experienced even a hint of hydroplaning. I run on some very rural dirt roads on the way to my cottage most weekends which do become quite muddy in the rain, and I find they do well in these conditions also.
Best all terrain tire I have experienced over the years.

 

Awesome! Thanks!