KDSS Help/Swap

Thank you!

So it looks like @glwood54 was right (among others). It appears that welding would be required to put standard sway bars on a KDSS 4Runner.

Or, should I just say that I was wrong?

I am still surprised that Toyota did it that way.

 

[QUOTE="Thatbassguy, post: 310091, member: 9314"But, there is an after-market rear sway bar that appears to attach in the same way that the kdss sway bar attaches.[/QUOTE]

Really? That'd make things easier! Do you have the info on that after-market rear sway bar?

 

Really? That'd make things easier! Do you have the info on that after-market rear sway bar?[/QUOTE]

I'm trying to find the picture I saw. I googled a bunch of different combinations of words. One picture popped up that showed a red sway bar behind the axle. I haven't seen it yet.

 

It finally warmed up enough for me to do a parking lot investigation and comparison between the SR5 and OR KDSS sway bar mounting systems today. These are how they compare:

The upper ends of the KDSS front sway bar fixed link and hydraulic piston mount to studs that are on the inside of the frame, that stick out 90° from the frame inward. The sway bar ends, of course, attach to brackets on the lower control arms.

The SR5 front sway bar mounts are on the bottom of the front of the frame, just forward of the cross member, as shown in post #25 above, with the end links mounting to the steering knuckle. The KDSS frame has some holes that appear to be similar to the SR5 mounting holes, but there are no threads, and a metal plate is inside of the frame, covering one or more of the holes.


The KDSS rear sway bar is behind the rear axle, the SR5 sway bar is in front of the rear axle, as shown in post #28 above.

The upper ends of the KDSS rear sway bar fixed link and hydraulic cylinder mount to brackets on a cross member behind the rear axle. The sway bar ends mount to two brackets, one on each side of the back of the rear axle.



The SR5 rear sway bar is mounted on two brackets on the front of the rear axle, with the end links attaching to brackets on the outside of the frame just in front of the rear tires. The KDSS 4R does not have either the front mounting brackets on the rear axle, or the end link brackets on the outside of the frame.




So, the two mounting systems are completely different, and the frame brackets for the SR5 sway bar are not on the KDSS frame or axles. They would have to be welded on, or drilled/tapped in each location if non-KDSS sway bars were installed on a KDSS 4R.

The basic difference between the two systems, other than the mounting, is the SR5 sway bar has fixed mounts for the bar itself, with links on the ends attached to brackets. The KDSS sway bar has links that attach to the bar itself, with the ends attached to fixed mounts.

Hopefully this answers some sway bar mounting difference questions.

 

Thanks. If you look further, you'll see the the front KDSS piston actually attaches above the frame to a bracket welded to the top of the frame rail.

I was surprised to see how much welding would be involved. It's surprising considering how Toyota builds things.

I was able to piece most of it together today from pictures found online and one picture from @McSpazatron

At least this confirms that a conversion would be a ton of work. And, it's likely not worth the effort.

 

I didn't crawl far enough under my 4R to see the actual piston and fixed link mounting points, just sorta looked in there, so thanks.

Toyota apparently has KDSS & non KDSS-specific axles and frames, and only uses each for the intended purpose.

 

I had nothing better to do.

I have been eating crow all day.

I wonder if the KDSS frames are the same as the GX then, since they have KDSS.

Probably not, with the way my day is going.

Thanks again for looking!

 

@aguilbeau I can't find what I thought I saw earlier.

I honestly think your best bet is to just delete the sway bars and get used to how it drives. With good aftermarket shocks, a lot of folks drive around without sway bars without issue.

 

LOL, I don’t think anyone is keeping score of how much crow any of us are eating. Or if someone is, I’m too clueless to notice (there are benefits to being clueless). You good

I’m kinda surprised at the differences in frame as well. I thought it would be a doable job. I guess it’s still doable, but probably not worth it.

I suppose though that when toyota puts in orders for frames (whether they do them in house or have them supplied), it makes no sense for them to manufacture all frames the same if they already know the percentage of kdss and standard systems they are going to build.

If anybody is bored and has Amazon prime, I recommend watching a show hosted by James May where he walks through the production of Mini coopers. Every item and part is serialized and intended for a specific actual car. Even everything coming from third party suppliers is intended for a specific car on the line, not yet built. There are no generic parts bins. Its parts are literally delivered to the factories “just in time” at the appropriate stage of a particular car’s assembly. Im sure toyota does similar. Very interesting watch.

 

Thanks for everyone’s effort and discussion about this. So, to get KDSS is $1750 bucks, and then lots of effort if it goes bad to fix. What kind of aftermarket suspension setup would 1750 bucks get?
I ask, because it seems that the North East doesn’t see very many, if any, KDSS 4runners according to a couple sales people and what I have seen based on watching inventory for the last few months. And as winter moves thru and spring is gets closer, I want to have something locked for summer adventures.

 

You can do a decent lift for $1750, if you do your own work. Maybe an Eibach setup, or Bilstein. I think Dobinson also offers some value oriented options.


Here's a few options from Bilsteinlifts.com just for example. You could get either of these setups + UCA's for around $1700-1800.

 

What would you expect to have something like that installed? I’m sure there are parts I could do, but nobody wants to fix my screw ups.

 

Lol! I honestly couldn't say. I would expect to pay 6-8 hours of labor, even though an experienced tech could probably install the lift in 3-4 hours.

That said, a lot of the guys here have done their own. I believe if you have a good place to work on it, and take your time, it's pretty straightforward.

It might be worth calling around any local 4 by 4 shops and asking for a quote on the labor.

 

I was given a quote of $390 labor + alignment ($100 +/-) for the install of Eibach struts & shocks by a local shop. Others were much higher. I was going to have them do the install, but Covid hit and they were backed up for weeks. I decided to do it myself, and it took me the weekend going really slow.

 

So probably 500 to a grand.
I’m just trying to understand an approximate cost to set up something worthy of KDSS. I’m sure I’ll need to have some stronger springs as I plan to have a RTT and I’m sure other weight to deal with. I don’t plan on Hard core rock climbing, but don’t want to be worried about anything when I start exploring.

 

It looks like a lot of kits give you options for rear springs depending on anticipated load.

It's hard to compare anything to KDSS because nothing else can provide the same benefits. However, depending on your long term goals, it can end up becoming a limitation.

 

I guess this is my path forward! This leaves one remaining question to go forward with my only viable solution to my problem - what entails "just delete the sway bars?" I could figure it out as i go along, but i have a tendency to get into something without knowing what i'm doing or what i've just done! I'm wondering if simply unbolting the sway bars and tossing them into the parts bin would be enough or if this would leave a few things hanging that need to be secured..... I'm a solid newbie with this.


And before i go any further- a HUUUUUGGGE thank you for everyone's input, and the great help of photos as well! This has been an interesting thread and my first experience in forums like this! Again, thank you to everyone, even to those whose thoughts turned out to be incorrect!

 

How is the ride quality currently? I'd be curious what state the valves are stuck in. If the ride is ok, you might not necessarily need to remove everything.

As far as deleting the system, the ideal way would include removing the sway bars, and the hardware attaching them to the frame. It would also be Ideal to remove the accumulator and hydraulic lines. This could be a bit of a project on it's own.

The front sway bar might be a bit of a pain to get out. You might need to remove the skid plate and possibly some other stuff to get it free.

I would budget at least a few hours, and be prepared for a mess when the hydraulic lines are disconnected.

It's too bad you're in this position. It seems like Toyota could have done a better job protecting the accumulator.

 

It currently leans about 2 inches to the driver's side. I'm unsure what the ride was like before, but i just test drove a non KDSS 4runner and it was a lot stiffer and no corner lean like mine has a lot. I wonder what removing the sway bars will do for me, make it more "soggy" when cornering? :/

 

A kdss 4Runner should have less body roll than a non kdss 4Runner. If your 4Runner is experiencing excessive lean, then I would have to guess the Pistons are moving freely. If that is the case, then removing it should not affect your on-road handling.

What doesn't make sense to me is why it is leaning then.

 

It's not a big deal if you never drive fast or it's an off-road only vehicle. But, if you drive at highway speeds and make a sudden swerve with no sway bars, you are asking for disaster because of the uncontrolled body roll.

It would make more sense to me to just install a rigid/static "ram" in place of the movable ram on both sway bar systems (like having 2 fixed rams on each sway bar). You'd lose the KDSS and off-roading capabilities, but have a much safer vehicle for driving on road.

I wonder if your KDSS is stuck in the off-road (less than 12mph) position? That would explain the soft ride...however a hydraulic leak would also explain it too.

Interesting scenario....

 

I agree with those thoughts- why is it always leaning if they are moving freely? It is very soggy in corners. Is the system actually ok but its just negatively reacting to the 3" lift? If yes, how would I know unless I buy and install the aftermarket KDSS spacers designed fortified 4runners?