Terrifying cornering

I recently installed oem lca's with Whiteline bushings, new 265\75r16 Milestar Patagonia mud terrains and got an alignment I'm not very happy with. Now my truck is terrifying in corners.

At normal cornering speeds it feels like Im going to slide off the road or roll the truck. My steering feels heavier and does not straighten out as quickly as it should and wanders when turning. It drives in a straight line but it seems to turn too much with the slightest input from the steering wheel.

After my alignment my front right tire was rubbing which it did not do before the alignment. I brought it back and now it does not rub as much but still rubs a little. The shop told me the adjustments were maxed out but when I aligned it myself (following a great write up here https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/how-to-do-an-alignment-at-home.252256/) my tire did not rub.

My question is what have I done to ruin my cornering? Should I align it myself again since the shop I took it to said thats the best they could do?

I also want to thank everyone here for sharing your knowledge. I've can't tell you how much I've learned about my 4runner digging through this forum.

 

Did you get a print-out of the alignment? The alignment shop should have given you a sheet that shows 'before' and 'after' specs of the alignment. Sounds like a camber issue, if I were to guess, but without knowing your numbers it's hard to say. One thing for sure, you should find a different shop.

 

I agree. Alignment print out would help see what is going on. It can also give some insight to the equipment used. I've seen some shops still using decades old machines on flat floors or truck racks without turn plates.

You can make anything drive straight. Incorrect total toe can cause heavy steering and quick steering. Caster can cause a lot of problems since it causes the most dynamic changes through tire swing in turn.

I have seen issues where the loading of the front end was incorrect or not done at all. Most shops I've worked at want to do toe and go alignments, one the reasons I got out of the business.

 

I think it's your caster.

Caster adjustments are on the LCA. Since you recently replaced the bushings on your LCAs, this spec is probably out of whack.

I'm guessing you're rubbing close to the mudflap (or at least the rear of your wheel well). Your steering not snapping back into place quickly is also a symptom of low caster.

Go to a different alignment shop and specify you want more positive caster. I'm not sure what those specs are on a 3rd gen, but that should solve your rubbing issue and your steering wheel issue.

 

Here is the only print out they gave me.

 

To the eye the camber, castor and toe look totally different on both wheels. My girlfriend even mentioned it to me when she came home from work. She knows nothing of camber, castor and thinks the toe is something to put nail polish on . I have not measured anything yet though so it might be an optical illusion. My garage is near perfectly level though and the terrifying cornering is not an illusion.

 

I don't know much about alignments, but it says your caster is 1 and .9 and spec is 2.3 to 2.8 which is not good at all. I would say that the person who did the alignment has no clue, and you should get your money back and go somewhere else.

 

I tried and the shop manager offered me a free oil change. I don't think I would let them wash it much less touch my engine. I decided to walk away and take the loss rather than choke the guy. They give a 6 month warranty but I'm not sure the alignment guy is competent enough to do the job right. I'm not even sure the print out they gave me is from the actual read out on the alignment machine.
My only thought would be is the alignment machine was not calibrated correctly if that is even possible.

 

To answer your question nimby the tire was rubbing on the front of the fender.

 

I had a similar issue that was caused by bad bushings. Since camber and caster are adjusted together, it seems they did the right thing in prioritizing camber over caster. Are you running some kind of aftermarket wheels? Not sure why any of this would cause rubbing.

 

I'm running the stock 16 inch rims with the 265/70r16 mud tires. The passenger side front wheel looks like it is sitting towards the front bumper more than the driver side. I will have to measure it tomorrow and let you know what I find.

 

Caster is way low on that print out. this can cause multiple issues.

The best way i can define caster is to relate to the front of a motorcycle. if you drew a line from the top and bottom ball joint, from the side of the car, that is the caster angle.
Positive caster is when the lower ball joint is further forward than the upper: Driver = / Passenger = \.

One thing higher caster does is return the wheels to center while driving. After turning the wheel, the steering wheel goes straight. Lack of caster can cause a "sloppy " steering "feel".

Positive caster also causes the Camber angle to change through a turn. Think of it as the top of the tire "Leans" into the turn (like a motorcycle). There's are several youtube vids that go into the science.

Whats not usually covered is the practical vehicle diagnostics. The steering input moves the tie rod a fixed amount. A basic explanation is when caster is positive, some of that tie rod movement leans the tire as well as pointing the tire in the direction of the turn. As caster nears 0, less movement is leaning the tire meaning the tire is being pointed more with the same input. This is because of the pivot point vs. tire patch math, a lot of vids on this too.

I would take a look at the UCA's making sure they are not damaged. also take a look at the LCA cams. pictures of these can help indicate what the shop did to achieve the angles on the print out.

 

Is your steering rack fully bolted in? lol
Like it sounds like your tie rods are effed or the rack is pivoting

 

If you paid with a card, do a charge back. That is unsat alignment.

 

I paid cash. Big mistake. A couple of weeks ago I installed new rack bushings, tie rods (in and out), replaced upper and lower ball joints, sway bar links and bushings and have rechecked the torque settings and all are fine. The only thing I have not done to the front end is replace my UCA bushings and the rack itself. I am about to head to the garage. You guys seem to be thinking it could be an alignment issue so I'm going to start there. I'll let you know how that goes.

Thanks god of dirt for your motorcycle reference. It helped me to finally get my head around caster. If there is too much positive caster (besides rubbing the front of my tire) will it make my steering wheel slow to center itself and make my steering too responsive (ie. Wheels turn a lot when the steering wheel is turned a little)?

 

Oh. Im running stock UCA's and the bushings seem ok.

 

That's weird you're rubbing on the front of your fender now with such a low caster number. Maybe it's causing some wonkiness with the other measurements? Nevertheless, an alignment is the best place to start. I bet you'll see a big improvement with a higher caster number.

 

Here are pics of my cam bolts.

 

Sorry for the extra pics. Not sure what happened there.

 

While messing with my alignment I realized the passenger side of my front bumper was hit and is now a little closer to the ground than the other side. Who ever hit me left a nice dent and some pretty red paint (looks like volvo red to me). So that explains my rubbing. I checked everything and no suspension or steering parts were damaged.

I did measure both tires from the back of the tire to the rear of the fender and found about a 1/4 inch different between the two. I also found my camber is -1.5 degree on the right and -.5 degree on the left. My toe was a 1/2 inch off on the passenger side using the jack stand fishing line technique The readings I got for my caster can not be correct so I'll measure again in the morning and get back to everyone. I think I forgot to zero my gauge between reading each tire.

The print out the shop gave me was not for my rig apparently. After the camber reading I got and the toe being out of whack I looked closer at the print out and the vin was not for my vehicle. Now I'm really pissed. I'm going back to the shop tomorrow and demanding a refund and some serious ass kissing.

I did adjust the toe and it seems to drive a little better but not much. Corners are still terrifying.

 

Do all your changes before you get it re-aligned.

 

Looks like the LCA are nearly maxed out for camber adjustment. Bolt to the out side of the vehicle = negative camber. There is a little left that can be split front to rear to ad some caster but nit much.

Any lift? Or spring sag? I also see chunky tires on the rear, Is the tread depth even on all four tires? .25" tread depth difference between tires can show .3 cross camber on top of alignment settings.
Dumb question, Are your tires radials or bias ply? Bias ply tires like low caster. Ask an old muscle car or restomod gear head.

You can see on the driver rear where they swung out the cam, tell tale sign of shiny metal. So some one tried to correct camber/caster. Rear cams affect camber more than caster. front has more affect on caster.

I also see the passenger rear is not factory adjuster. Not bad but some times they can slip. Since this is still to the outside, should not be a problem.

I would ask for an alignment check and see if the readings are close to the print out, Vin might not be critical. It it is ask for the camber to be brought in and caster raised.

If you tires are in rough shape, might see if some one has a set you can swap on for the alignment.

 

You are correct. The passenger rear is new but matches size in every way. I put my calipers on it before installing. I also torqued it down tight enough to where the alignment guy said it was stuck. I had to loosen for him the first time he worked on it.

I have a 3 inch lift and my springs are pretty new. There is no sag. All 4 tires are brand new. On a side note the best tires I've owned. Half the price as bfg ko2's. I'll start another thread on the those later. They are a mud tire but Im not sure if they are radials or not. Dumb question but how would I tell?

I did as you said and brought the camber in and a little more caster and it helped a lot. I mean A LOT!!! I have an appointment at the shop tomorrow and they are going to try again but I'm going to be standing there as they do the work.

Thank you guys again for the knowledge. I had no idea where to start looking to solve this and no clue alignment, especially caster, could play such a huge roll in cornering. I'd buy you guys a beer if we went to the same bar (god of dirt, i'd buy a you a few).
Ill let you know how it plays out at the shop tomorrow.

 

No problem. I miss working on alignments and suspensions.. sometimes.

Usually Radial molded on the side wall. Also part of the tire size numbers The "R" is for radial. Usually this is only an issue for older cars and BIG tires over 42 but i have seen smaller mud tires made bias, these work best on solid axle rigs with adjustable trailing arms or spring wedges.

Quick not one cross camber and caster. Camber pulls to the positive side. Caster pulls to the negative side. This is useful for correcting for road crown, which will vary depending on the roads you drive.

Most of the time you'll need a little left hand pull (driver tire lower caster or higher camber), if mostly local roads. Highway haulers usually want to keep as even as possible, since the left lanes tend to slope towards center divide. Cross camber / caster can be used to cancel the pull of each other if desired setting cant be reached.

If your get to watch the alignment. Ask that they re swing caster measurement after setting the toe. Caster is measured by swinging the tires side to side. Most machines will calculate while adjusting but should be verified once adjustment is complete.

Ask for before and after measurements too. not to prove that work has been done, but to track how it changes the handling. This way if it still feels off or better you can track the changes.

Oh, and be nice to the alignment techs. They have access to the tool you can't buy at harbor freight, yet..

 

Drive away from that shop, like you stole it.

 

Btw. What is your Psi? Your alignment is way off. Go to a specialized alignment shop.

 

There is some great advice in this thread. Please let us know how it went after the new alignment.

 

Just got back from the shop and my cornering issue is solved. The guy who aligned it this time was the owner of the shop and has been doing alignments since the begining of time. Everything is as close to spec as he could get it but he said with my lift I need different UCA's that are adjustable to get both caster and camber in spec.

It now drives better than it has since I rebuilt the front end and it corners great. It drives straight, is more controlled on the freeway and centers itself pretty good.

Thanks for the help. I thought I screwed something up and almost started taking my front end back apart. I have a much better understanding of alignment now thanks to this forum. If any of you guys ever come to the Santa Cruz area of California I'll buy you a beer (god of dirt, you get a few beers and a shot or 2 of your favorite hooch).

I have 2 more questions and this thread can die. I have 2 jobs both of which are a couple of miles up dirt roads. One is pretty gnarly in winter with mud and rutt's. On the street steering is near perfect but hitting the rutt's it seems like the wheels are fighting the input of the steering wheel a little bit. I'm not sure how to explain how it feels.

Should I stop whining and be happy with it or will new, adjustable UCA''s make it noticeably better through the rough?
Are they worth the money or is that money better spent elsewhere?

 

Roland. My tires say 80 psi but I have them at 75. It's a little less harsh in the dirt and does not affect the street performance as far as I can tell.

 

Don't forget, ruts try to "grab" the front wheels. They want to fall down into the ruts. Gravity will prevail, afterall. Once they're IN the ruts, they want to follow them. The sides "steer" the front wheels, unless you can force them up and out.

That's why motorcyclists dislike the freeways with the rain grooves cut into them so intensely. You get a slightly deeper one, like where two sides of the groover come together, and it'll try to grab the front tire. It CAN throw the biker off, especially if he's not tight on the bars. It will make the front wheel wobble like an SOB when it grabs ahold.
When I was stationed at El Toro, in Santa Anna, near LA, I loved to just get off base and ride the freeways. I quickly learned to avoid the ones with rain grooves cut in them whenever I could, though. I hated them.

The ruts on your dirt roads can do the same, but you have 4 wheels to stay up on, thankfully. Just be certain to get into the habit of driving, especially on the dirt, with your thumbs and fingers OUTSIDE the wheel. The most common off-roading injury is a broken thumb, or two. If the rut suddenly changes the direction of the front wheels, it can spin the steering wheel suddenly. Personally, I've gotten into the habit of never, ever, putting my fingers and thumbs inside the steering wheel.

Modern, true "power" steering, with no physical connection between the steering wheel, and the front wheels, is much less prone to this problem. The older, "power-assisted" steering is vulnerable to this situation.

Have fun bouncing your truck off road! It's what it's made for, after all
Pat☺