4x4 SUV powertrains have become complex in a hurry

Man, the 4x4 SUV world has suddenly become dominated by complex engines, and powertrains with serious reliability questions.

On the Wrangler, you basically have to choose the form of your destructor:
* Pentastar V6 with manual (I love manuals, but the JL transmission is BAD)
* Pentastar V6 with eTorque 48V belt-start generator (which routes a bunch of cooling lines and li-ion batteries under the vehicle)
* Turbo I4
* Italian diesel
* Unobtanium V8 that has some serious packaging concerns.
* 4xe plug-in hybrid. Nuff said.
AND the I4 and manual V6 have electronic stop/start, which uses a motorcycle battery that is prone to failure.
You can no longer get just a V6 without eTorque (auto) or the ESS (manual) systems.

On the Bronco you have two high-stress turbocharged Ford engines.

On the new Defender you have two high-stress turbocharged British/Indian engines.

I mean, would anyone feel great about buying any of these for extended off-road use? The 1GR-FE isn't my favorite engine in the world, and the 5-speed auto should have been upgraded long ago, but at least they utilize proven technology that isn't prone to failure. I honestly don't know what I'd choose if forced to take an alternative. Probably a 2.3L Bronco, just because that engine has been around for a while and does OK in the Ranger.

 

Agree .................I think there is a 2.0L engine for the Bronco as well? (My wife likes the Bronco Sport )
I agree that the old jeep motors were great. (The 4.2L and 4.0 L were reliable like the 4.0L in the 4 runner.)
Fiat owns Jeep now.( I cannot imagine anything good can come from that?)

 

What exactly is a "high stress" engine?

 

That would be an engine that stress’s you out every time you drive it thinking it’s going to crap out before you can get home.

 

Chrysler, Ford and Land Rover have never been known for reliability anyway.

 

Yes, God forbid they put in a NA V8, that has been proven in the GX, or the Land Cruiser, or an eight speed transmission that has seen literally millions of miles in JUST ABOUT EVERY OTHER TOYOTA AND LEXUS SUV.

Because it’s not like the engine mounts, mounting hardware, and frames aren’t literally identical and could accommodate better and bigger PROVEN engines and transmissions.

 

The v6 and v8 are going extinct. It will be turbo 4 cylinders or 4 cyl/electric hybrid motors going forward

 

That may be, but not at my house. I'm 60 years old, between my 2015 Tacoma and my 4 Runner, I have probably the last vehicles I will ever need.

 

But if they give nice things to the 4R then obviously all the rich people will instantly abandon the GX... because reasons.

 

Yes, who really cares though? Lets be honest, no one takes these on extended off road trips that last weeks. If your concerned that a part will fail on an expedition, you bring spare parts. This argument about reliability being paramount wont change the trend of more complicated engines. The 4runner has used computers since almost the very beginning (E in 22RE was for electronic), yet we still consider 1st gens reliable.

I mean all technology start off by being unproven, radial tires, electronic fuel injection, composite headlights, even the 1GR engine were all once unproven technology that we have accepted. I get your point, but lets be optimistic that Toyota put some R&D into the future 4runner before we say that they are pushing out half baked technology.

The biggest issue with the current and future 4runner is that it is way larger than it should of ever been, and this bloated size is the reason Toyota needs to shove turbos and superchargers under the hood to make it feel peppy. Its a hard pill to swallow, but we've done it before when we went away from carbonators and to electronic fuel injection (early efi systems were also notoriously difficult to fix)

The best we can hope for now is that all these things are implemented in a way that makes it easy to service and fix anywhere. Or embrace electrification that has no combustion engine with thousands of moving parts to go wrong, but I don't think its developed enough to be put in a 4runner.

 

And for those that like doing 80mph out on the open road… it’s just not gonna be as much fun anymore.

 

80 mph in a 4 runner.....thats just scary. You are more brave than me!

 

There's a reason GM, Jeep, Ford products from the era of the 1st gen 4Runner are basically all dust in the wind by now though. Toyota trucks then and still now are overbuilt compared to what ever else is on the market.

That is why this commercial works, whereas it wouldn't make any sense if we were taking about a 1988 S10 Blazer.

 

Yeah.

80mph seems really slow in a turbo 4.

 

Sad but true. I will hold on to this car forever. Nothing like driving an old V8, and I want my kids to be able to see how cars used to be made when they're old enough to appreciate it.

 

Out here, if you are not doing 80 with everyone else, you will wind up roadkill.

 

Many view the speed limit signs as a suggestion. LOL

Rick

 

Drive a Wrangler at 80 which makes the 4R feel like a go cart.

 

I will add that I mostly agree with a simple NA 6cyl either V or I (inline) and even a 4 cyl for simplicity. However, the 2JZ-GTE engine from the beloved Supra of the 90's is a shining example of what can be achieved with a FI engine. I personally have seen 800 HP being reliably produced in a friends 96'. (Insane car, wait...insane owner, as his TT C5 was 1300ish hp. Thankfully he now owns a dually.)

That said, working on one isn't fun, nor is the complexity, or cost. Additional cooling, packaging, yada yada yada. I'm less concerned about drivability, because long gone are the days of the first 911's that took a week to go from slow to absolutely terrifying. If the engine is built properly there is little to be worried about for reliability.

But again, simplicity I think is what we are after. If FI is the last gasp of the ICE, I think Toyota will be the one to nail it.

 

One can hope that eventually when the landscape is dominated by these complex, over 4 cylinder and turbo arrangement engines, manufacturers will dhift R&D towards making more efficient 6 and 8 cylinder engines in an effort to stand out or separate from the pack.

 

What's unobtanium about a V8 Wrangler?

Plenty around here.

 

HA-HA.. That's what I said 7 years ago when I was 70 "last vehicle for me" - then 6 months ago I traded my beautiful F150 (5.0 4X4) for my '19 4Runner. No regrets but I'm not saying "never" again..

 

Huh. In states with interstate speed limits of 75-80mph it’s no problem. The 4runner goes down the road just fine. Really nice, actually.

 

My 06 4Runner (V8 4WD) died an untimely death at about 154k miles. If it weren't for the deer and subsequent tree that parked itself in the middle of the engine bay, I firmly believe it would still be on the road today. That is why I bought my 21 TRD ORP after 5 years driving a Silverado. That Silverado was like a ticking time bomb - just waiting for an AFM lifter to fail.

However, I have a couple old 99 Jeep TJs with the 4.0L motors. I just sold one of them that had 254k miles on it. The engine ran beautifully and original AX15 tranny was perfect. The Jeep TJ I still have has 197k on it and also runs beautifully.

Now, I do agree that the new Fiat Jeeps have no place in my garage but the older ones (thru 2006) with the 4.0L are bulletproof.

 

It can be driven at that speed all day long, but let’s not kid ourselves that it was not meant to change directions or brake well at that speed.

Then again, many large trucks aren’t, either.

 

Having worked several years on jeep products the only negative I recall on the 4.0s was a propensity of the exhaust manifold to crack - remembering I replaced several of them both under warranty and customer pay.

 

That is a very true statement. The exhaust manifold was cracked on both of my TJs. Fortunately, they are cheap and relatively easy to replace (after soaking the bolts in PB blaster for 3-4 days). There is an upgraded design that is more flexible to keep it from cracking again for some peace of mind as well. But for a Mopar, that is still pretty reliable. The Jeep I kept is just a toy and I have AAA to get it home if it decides not to want to do that under its own power.

I bought the T4R as my daily because it is incredibly reliable. I actually like that it is a basic 4.0 V6 with an old school 5 speed tranny. No Active Fuel Management (Displacement on Demand), no GDI Engine, and no start/stop system etc...).

 

Why not? If it's anything like Ford's turbo 4, it will actually have more power than our current V6. Or, is what you're saying that it won't be fun because the motor won't be struggling as much?

I've had mine over 100 a few times, and over 80 pretty regularly. It's not bad. You just need to keep your eyes down the road looking for traffic.

 

I don't think turbo motors are inherently unreliable. As long as the engine is designed for the extra stress, it should be fine. Maybe the turbo will need to be rebuilt periodically, but that's not the end of the world.

Personally, I like the idea of a potentially more powerful and more fuel efficient 4Runner.

Sure they will, eventually. But, I do agree that the country is nowhere near ready for it. I sure hope they figure out a better power source, and can figure out how to make recharging them more efficient.

My biggest turnoff with current electric vehicles is that it's completely impractical to drive cross country with one. Once they can get 300+ miles on a charge, and recharge completely in 10 minutes, I'll be ready to consider owning one.

 

Around 100 is already getting on the upper end of most all-terrain and mud tire speed ratings. I’m surprised it’s not governed at 90/95.