How to disconnect the tracking telemetry on the 5th gen 4Runner

Yeah, for Limited it might be not so bad from sound perspective (but considering my "OCD" I would not accept it anyway, hah). Anyway I have TRDOP so I'll be affected more...

Also when you pull the fuse, mic and speaker might not disappear immediately - you might try to leave it overnight in order to drain backup battery (BBU on schematics).

 

Awesome discussion, I'm pulling the fuse, heck with the mic and speaker. Freedom.

 

Please let us know how it goes! For example, if anything else stops working for you. That would be really helpful.

 

This is interesting, I have 2 4R with this going on.

 

While we put the finishing touches on our tinfoil hats, you are aware that’s just about every vehicle manufactured after 2013 has a black box that collects telemetry leading up to a collision, right?

 

This is very useful information and on-topic, thank you very much!

 

Yes, I think everyone knows that. It's not the point. And in fact, the reason why EDRs are of less concern is discussed in this very thread.

To summarize for you though, the concern that I and most of the people in this discussion are expressing is about:

1. The car's transmission of personal data to Toyota, and to anyone that Toyota gives access to, and to anyone who hacks into Toyota's system. This includes a lot more than location data, which, yes, everyone already knows is also an issue with cellphones etc. etc. It includes driving behavior and private conversations occurring inside the vehicle, among other things.

2. The ability of Toyota, or any anyone Toyota gives access to, or anyone who hacks into Toyota's system, to remotely control major systems in the vehicle. For example, slamming on the brakes (automated emergency braking system), turning the engine on or off (Remote Connect service) and turning on the microphone to eavesdrop on conversations inside the vehicle (Safety Connect service). This is not theoretical. These very things have already occurred with OnStar etc.

To be clear, I don't blame anyone who says, yeah, well all that is pretty unlikely and I'm not going to mess with things just on the off chance something like that happens. That's a perfectly reasonable point of view.

But at the same time, look at the hacks and the ransoms that been sought in the electrical grid. In a gas pipeline. In hospital and insurance company systems. At the federal government. And on and on. Seriously, it would be more sensible than not to assume nation-state hackers have already gained back doors into systems like this and OnStar as part of their cyber warfare strategy. We know this sort of thing is happening in many businesses. There's no reason whatsoever to believe that the auto industry and these kinds of Connected Services systems are immune.

So, not tinfoil hat stuff.

 

If we’re on that subject, a lot of the electronic safety systems currently in use are not particularly resistant to remote hacking and even if a car is not self driving, certain automatic braking and evasion systems could potentially be triggered by a bad actor.

 

Exactly. Imagine cars with more high tech features than the 4Runner -- eg lane keep assist and self parking. In those cars, a hacker could take control of your steering as well as other systems like braking.

There are several reasons I'm not a big fan of these driver aids. But one of the biggest for me is their vulnerability to remote control by a bad actor. This is why I've been focusing on the cellular connection in our trucks. That is the linchpin for hacking these systems, because that is what connects these systems to remote computers via the Internet. If the car is incapable of communicating outside of itself, this concern goes away.

I wouldn't want self parking or lane keep assist, even without an Internet connection. But at least I'd know that the car could only do what it was programmed to do when it left the factory. And if the computer lets me turn it off, I can turn it off and not worry about someone else turning it back on.

Of course, someone with physical access to your car could mess with it in all kinds of ways. That's always been the case -- regardless of how much technology your car has. It could be a 1957 Chevy. But this is hardly a practical concern on the level of remote hacking over the Internet. Few of us have reason to fear someone targeting us individually. If someone is "out to get you" personally, it won't much matter whether you have Connected Services or not. The worry is that hackers such as a hostile nation state could target the entire system for Connected Services or OnStar, sending out malicious commands to thousands of vehicles in order to cause havoc.

I'm no government insider / super spy (LOL!). But I do happen to know from my professional experience that hostile nations do in fact have major programs for doing exactly this sort of thing. And I also happen to know that law enforcement has manipulated these kinds of systems, sometimes without warrants. Neither of those things are non-issues. My purpose in these posts is to increase awareness of these risks, and to identify practical solutions for mitigating them.

 

Interesting story I've read on one of Totota forums - the guy did not disconnect this thing and few month later received elevated premiums from his insurance "for aggressive driving habits". Insurance company disclosed that they received information about "driving habits" from Toyota.

 

I get the debate surrounding this topic, and really there are good points being made from multiple perspectives here.

As it relates to the 4Runner, I'm not sure why people are pulling fuses and trying to cut power to the DCM telematics module, and then worrying about microphone and speaker issues. Cutting the power to the DCM ECU also removes the vehicle error notification in the radio in addition to affecting mic and speaker stuff.

Just pull the access panel on the left hand inside of the glove box, or the whole glove box if you can't get to it and unplug the darn telephone antenna cables from the module. Then it can no longer transmit anything.

For those with 2020+ telematics, unplug the white and blue antenna connectors at the module. Do not unplug the small grey connector (this is GPS from the GPS antenna and nav system under the dash, or large grey connector (power, etc). Leave the main connector and white 4 wire speaker connector hooked up. Your overhead console SOS light might turn red from the system not having a cellular connection but it will be effectively cut from transmitting anything, and you won't have to worry about chasing down secondary issues from doing this.

Just note, no connection means no over air software updates and or nav/radio updates.

 

Thank you for this post. I've been wondering about pulling the antenna as a cleaner, better alternative to pulling the fuse. @Slopemaster had mentioned it too, but I was not aware that one can pull the antenna for just the cellular connection while leaving the GPS antenna intact. That's important information, as I was hoping to avoid losing the GPS signal for the OEM navigation.

I would love it if someone can try this and post pics on the steps. I'm reluctant to experiment with removing parts of the dash without knowing what I'm doing.

Would also be very interested in confirmation that disconnecting the cellular antenna is sufficient for preventing cellular communication. As I noted in an earlier post, our cell phones don't have long coax cables attached to sharkfins -- so I guess I'm not 100% certain that the DCM would end up receiving no signal at all. But def worth a try!!!

Yes of course, it's understood that killing the cellular connection means no over-the-air system updates or updates to the OEM maps, or for current traffic information and the like. I can totally live with that.

Thanks again -- great info.

 

Thanks , @Old Red.
Just to clarify, does this pertain only to 2020 plus model years, and 2014-2019 Limiteds only?
The other 14-19 trims do not have the cellular connectivity DCM?

 

X2. What vulnerabilities does our 2019 ORP have? We have an aftermarket remote start...
I love this thread. FYI.
Ryan.

 

This is really a non issue for pre-2020 4Runners below Limited trim.

An easy way to confirm this for yourself is if your vehicle has an SOS button to call for help in an emergency. This is part of the Safety Connect service. You can double check for this feature in your owners manual and the spec sheet and window sticker for your vehicle. But if it's pre-2020 below Limited, it should not have it.

If it does have SOS / Safety Connect, the car is connected to the Internet via the cellular network and of course has a microphone in the cabin.

If it doesn't have SOS there should be no cellular chip and thus no ability to transmit or receive data over the Internet.

Even if you have Safety Connect prior to 2020 (eg you have a 2015-2019 Limited) there's less of a concern than for 2020+ models. This is because it was only in 2020 that the car's computers were programmed to also do things like brake automatically in a perceived emergency, or to allow you (or Toyota or a hacker) to start or stop your engine, lock or unlock your car, etc. etc. over the Internet.

If I had a pre-2020 Limited I'd still want to disable the cellular connection, but I'd be less motivated about the whole thing than I am now.

I wouldn't worry about any remote start that relies on a keyfob. The question in this whole thing is -- is my truck connected to the Internet? If you're remote starting from the Toyota app on your phone, then it is.

 

As far as the privacy issue goes; NOTHING is private anymore! If you are not being monitored by your vehicle, then it's your phone, laptop, tablet TV...etc.
Technology owns us now. No worries though. I have nothing to hide. If someone wants to hear me cus about other drivers while I'm in my vehicle, then they need to get a life or find something more productive to do.
More importantly; my debit card has been hacked 3 times in the last 6 months and nobody has a good answer to that. A little safer to use the credit card, but still not foolproof.
I will not live my life in fear though!

 

I was gonna let this go, but respectfully I think this kind of perspective is deeply problematic and so requires counterpoints.

1. It is not in fact the case that "nothing" is private anymore. We can make choices to preserve privacy in many ways. For example, not everyone uses social media, which provides an incredible treasure trove of personal information that is exploited daily by businesses (such as insurance companies checking to see if you were honest on your application or your claim, for just one of many examples), by hostile nations and by hackers. Even our cellphones, which pose a lot of privacy risk, can be used in ways to reduce that risk. And some tech companies are better than others with respect to the data that's collected and how it is used. For example, Google's entire business model is based on the collection and sale of your personal data. Apple's business model is not. Apple ain't a saint, but it's way better in this regard.

2. The defeatist conclusion that nothing is private and nothing can be done is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we take that attitude, we give up and don't bother to protect ourselves in ways that we can, or to support policies that help protect us and our fellow citizens. Anyone who thinks nothing can be done and everything sucks has been paying no attention to all the ways in which longstanding policies have protected people in many areas of life. Our air and water are far, far cleaner now than they were decades ago -- because of sensible policies. That's prevented a lot of illnesses and saved a lot of lives. Both people we love and people we don't even know. This is fact. And just one example. Is your view that "polluters are gonna pollute no matter what we do, so don't even bother trying to stop it"? That would fly in the face of reality. It's simply not true.

3. The "I have nothing to hide" trope. Seriously? This has long been a go-to excuse for turning a blind eye to abuses by government. I have nothing to hide, so it's ok if the cops enter my house everyday and search all my property? That's ok? I have nothing to hide, so it's ok if a corporation or law enforcement or hackers listen to the argument I'm having with my wife in the car? Or what if you're phoning in a to-go order and giving your debit card number over the phone? That's not something you want to "hide" from anyone but the restaurant? Seriously, you're not even being practical here.

4. This whole discussion is about more than your privacy, it's also about the risk of bad actors taking control of your vehicle. Read the posts. No one is saying it's gonna happen tomorrow. But history and common sense show it's an actual risk, by no means only theoretical. Such things have already occurred, including with systems such as OnStar.

......

Sorry about your debit card -- that sucks. Yes, using a credit card would be safer. CC companies will remove any charge you say is fraudulent and investigate before requiring payment. (This is another example of good public policy -- go figure). Speaking of financial safety, the ability to place a security freeze on each of the credit bureaus is a great step. Then no one can take out a credit card or a loan in your name, even if they've stolen your identity. It's not a 100% solution to everything, but still very powerful. Your ability to do this, and for free BTW, is also the result of legislation. Again, go figure.

 

I cannot continue without going where forum fules forbid. Way to many variables to go into. Oh..I don't participate in Social Media either.
BTW, how did you arrive at your username?

 

If you’ve read an EULA recently, the expectation these days is if you want privacy, don’t get a new car, TV, phone, kitchen appliance, or anything that can connect to the Internet.

The sheer amount of money turning you into a commodity by harvesting every last bit of personal information is just too tempting.

The architects of digital society have essentially said that you should make your life completely open for them, or withdraw from society and live off the grid in a log cabin in Wyoming.

 

God, grant me the SERENITY to accept the things I cannot change; the COURAGE to change the things I can, and the WISDOM to know the difference.

 

I don't want anyone eavesdropping when my girl and I are having a little slap and tickle in the back seat.

 

I hear Ya bud, but those days are way behind me. I save that stuff for home now.

 

@Doubleduty, "Singleminded" is part making fun of myself (as is apparent from this thread, I can be like a dog with a bone lol...) and part reference to something that has nothing to do with 4Runners. It is not however a statement about my marital status. Been married a long time.

 

Just pulln' your chain Bud. Did not mean to sound derogatory.

 

@ElectroBoy, correct. This is only for the 20+ with telematics DCM. Pre-2020 without the overhead SOS button do not have any cellular connectivity.

I would assume disconnecting the antenna cable on the 14-19 limiteds would be effectively the same if one wanted to do this. I do know the modules are different, so I would have to check which connector it is.

I think 14-19 were 3G CDMA telematics and 20+ are 4G LTE telematics modules (take this info with a grain of salt I could be wrong on the cell type).

 

Thanks, @Old Red.
One more thing. Is the GPS antenna, and phone antenna if any, located in the dash on top of the radio head unit?

And the external shark fin houses the XM radio antenna only?

 

Ok so this morning I pulled the DCM fuse. Just FYI, I have 2021 base SR5.

Like Singleminded said "I pulled the fuse. I then started up the truck. No error messages or lights or anything amiss. A small "DCM" icon remained visible at the top right of the infotainment screen as per normal, but the signal-strength meter next to it was grayed out and showed no bars."

Same here, have driven it twice since (20 miles) and did not notice a missing speaker and yes I did the fade thing. No lights (green or red) on SOS button.

I did not want to try pulling the antenna as I would lose the radio, correct?

So far so good. Next is to figure out which ECU or whatever that records vehicle info, so if I get into a major accident that maybe is my fault, I can pull the thing before they tow it off.

 

This is the little access panel inside the glove box that @Old Red is referring to. Get a plastic trim tool and twist it in one then the other slot to pop it off. See what’s behind there. Get your camera, take photos to show what’s inside, and post them please.
Here’s what’s in my 18 ORP. Yours will be different.

 

Thank you. The statement "I have nothing to hide" when discussing privacy breaches is idiotic. Can't tell you how many times I've heard that. So, it's ok if I come into your house and look around, because you have nothing to hide? I'm suspicious of anyone who says they have nothing to hide. BORING LIFE is just one thing that comes to mind. People miss this point: You have no right to know my business, regardless of who you are, unless there's evidence that I've committed a serious-enough crime to warrant investigation (meaning speeding tickets don't count). Your right to privacy trumps many, many things. Why give it up so easily simply because you think you're free of suspicion?

 

This is a very narrow summation of what I mean!
There ARE! things I will NOT tolerate such as you coming in my house to look around uninvited. You probably would not leave. Believe me! My life is far from boring Dk.
Best to just leave this alone..