How much will a 4Runner improve my winter traction/handling?

Hi Everyone,

I hope the title of my thread doesn't make too many of you roll your eyes! I have been researching 4Runners for a couple of weeks, and very nearly bought one over Memorial Day weekend (2020 OR). I balked after a fairly lengthy test drive due to the fuel consumption and the relatively poor acceleration. I'd heard rumors of a new powertrain coming in 2022 so thought I might wait, but I don't really want to wait. The reason I am in the market for one is that I have a cabin up on the North Shore of Lake Superior in Minnesota (near Grand Marais, if anyone knows where that is). I come here all year long. Many times during the winter, it is a pretty treacherous drive, especially along Hwy 61, which is right along the lake, has a lot of twists and turns and gets lake effect snows and squalls. If any of you listen to Bob Dylan, it is THAT Highway 61. And, to be perfectly honest, although I am not actually much of a truck guy, I do think the 4Runner is by far the best looking SUV on the road, and maybe the best looking vehicle on the road right now (especially the TRD Pro with the front "Toyota" bar)

I currently drive a 2019 AWD Honda CR-V and have Michelin X-Ice winter tires. It is mushy, I can't really feel the road, and I don't feel great about my level of control, even at relatively slow speeds. And, I am NEVER excited to get in it and drive, summer or winter, and I like to drive. Prior to that I had a 2014 BMW sportwagen, also with winter tires, which felt quite a bit better, but I no longer trust BMW after they failed to get behind their flawed timing belt housing issues (which would have meant up to $7,000 in repairs and maintenance on a car with a little less than 100K miles). I loved driving that car (not surprisingly).

Anyway, I haven't been able to find much on whether I am going to get better traction and handling during the winter. Whatever I buy, I will be buying winter tires for it, so I am not really asking which winter tires are best for a 4runner. I've seen threads like that (I did do a couple of searches in this forum and other places before posting this thread). I am asking if the 4Runner itself will get me better traction and handling in the winter.

Also, while I am at it, most of the roads up here are unpaved, gravel roads. The CR-V does okay on these roads during the summer, but again I feel like I am floating and don't have great control. Will the 4Runner improve handling on these roads?

Any feedback will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Michael

 

You might want to look at the Limited with its full-time 4wd. It seems more appropriate, traction-wise, for your purpose.

 

You have a 4 wheel drive vehicle now, with tires on. The only thing the 4runner offers the CRV I would imagine is the added tech such as ATRAC and lockers and what not. Nothing that will improve your on road driving. Now if you’re going to go off-road,

 

If you didn’t already know, a typical 4WD system is RWD until its mechanically locked into 4WD. When it's in 4WD the front and rear are locked together and forced to spin at the same speed, but that's not physically possible unless you’re driving straight or a tire is slipping. When you’re turning the path of the front wheels is longer than that of the rear wheels - an easy visual to picture in your head is a semi making a right hand corner at an intersection. They pull very very wide into the intersection almost crossing into the oncoming side of the road with the cab yet the back wheels of the trailer barely making it around the corner without hopping up on the curb. The front wheels traveled a further distance than the rear wheels did. All vehicles do the same thing just on a more compact scale. With a vehicle locked in 4WD the drivetrain WILL start to bind up while driving anything but straight ahead, the result is that something has to release the tension - either a front tire drags or a rear tire spins to make front axle speed match the rear axle speed, or the inner workings of the transfer case blow out the side of the housing and dump onto the road. The latter being the least likely but it does happen, especially over time with repeated binding. Try pulling into a parking space with a vehicle locked in 4WD, it'll get stuck from binding up so bad while trying to turn. When you drive in the snow in 4WD you’re forcing tires to break traction and slip which obviously isn’t doing you any favors.

AWD allows all 4 wheels to be driven while letting the move at different speeds as needed.

Now let’s look at the advantages of 4WD and AWD. It will help you accelerate.

The end.

It will not help you stop, it will not help you turn, it will not help you hold the road around a bend, it will not help you switch lanes over the slush channels, it will not help you with anything except applying power to accelerate. The rest is all up to the one thing on the vehicle that actually contacts the ground, the tires. Winter tires are the only thing that is going to improve safety, braking, handling, and grip of your vehicle in winter driving conditions, getting up to speed is irrelevant if you can’t control it once your there. The single thing that determines traction is the tires ability to maintain grip with the road.

That being said the full time 4WD on the Limited uses a torsion center diff (made popular by Audi’s Quattro system) which drives all 4 wheels all the time while allowing them to move separately. It’s not uncommon for some AWD vehicles to be front wheel drive until slip is detected and then it actives the other wheels.

 

I agree & disagree.
If you have a higher vehicle (suspension) than you have a better chance of getting through.
Also, the tires on a CR-V cannot match the traction of even to good sipped tires on a bigger SUV.
The technology will also help if you ever need it. There are some crazy YouTube videos on how you can bury it & let itself crawl out (no personal experience).
I can see then keeping the same HP range close as it would hurt their EPA rating. If needed get a SC!
On our test drive we took ours into the last snowfall of the year (3+ feet of snow) into a lot that wasn't plowed all winter. My wife drove in (under my suggestion) & as soon as we lost momentum we were done. As I do lawn & snow removal and I couldn't let the dealership know). I got into it and put it in 4L not knowing how to use the electronics yet (1st time 4runner owners ) and walked out.
Long questions require through responses and that is my $0.02.

 

You might read my post here regarding self recovery equipment. The same theories apply to your CRV:
https://www.4runners.com/threads/is...for-living-in-snow-country.13626/#post-151601

The 4Runner Pro and OR / ORP is an off road biased vehicle comparable to the Jeep Wrangler. If you are looking for BMW on road handling - don't get a 4Runner.

If you're looking for a vehicle more comfortable than a Wrangler, that you can lift, armor, add a winch, and hit off road trails in all seasons (mud, rock, snow, etc) - then the 4Runner might be for you.

 

The 4Runner is kinda mushy/boaty until you do stuff to it, really. New suspension on my OR really changed all that. I enjoy driving it more now than before I did that. If it’s street driving you do, and a lot of long trips, there are probably more efficient, comfortable critters out there. As others have said, the full-time 4WD of the Limited along with the fancier suspension it has (does it have KDSS or something else?) probably give it a bit different ride quality, but I’ve never driven one. Add winter tires and you’ve got a really good tool. Replacing my stock tires with some winter-rated ATs helped make mine a good winter driver. But down here in MKE the snow hasn’t been like it has up there in Grand Marais over the past couple years.

 

That is actually an excellent question (IMO). I have seen too many "drivers" think that because they have 4 WD or AWD that road conditions are irrelevant. An object in motion......etc., etc. 4WD AWD are excellent tools if a person understands certain laws of physics. Yes, you can get on it until you you need to turn or stop then the laws change a bit. It is best to know your limits and those of the vehicle. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir since you are a winter driver/survivor. Most 4WD do pretty well in the snow and ice if they have proper traction and a driver who appreciates the forces involved.
Sorry to get on the soap box. Good luck in your decision. By the way,I really like my new Venture 4Runner

 

Nothing with a “mild all terrain” is going to be your best bet for winter driving.

 

Thank you and everyone else for taking the time to provide me such useful and detailed information.

So, it does sound like I am better off staying with what I have rather than going with a 4Runner, unless I get the limited, with AWD option. That's too bad. I can't buy the Limited. It comes with a moonroof. I test drove the TRD Pro first, and realized I am too tall to sit with my back straight without the top of my head pressing against the ceiling. I then drove an OR (not premium, so no moonroof) and had no issues.

I think I was hoping to hear that I would see great improvement, because I so wanted to justify buying a 4Runner!

 

Test drive a Lexus GX, same platform as the 4Runner but they all have the full time 4WD (not AWD) maybe it’ll fit better.

 

We had a record snow year here in south central Alaska this past year. This is my first 4Runner I’ve ever owned (coming from a Jeep SRT) and was absolutely shocked at how well my Pro did in 2wd with the stock Nittos.

Best vehicle I’ve ever driven up here in 2wd easily. For reference, am currently on my 3rd Tundra, have had two Tacoma’s, and drive tons of different half ton trucks over the last few decades with work.

 

Lots of great info here, and nothing more I can add CollieDog, really, except welcome to the forum! However, I drive an ORP in a snow belt in Central Ontario, and I’ve had a lot of experience driving on closed roads and in bad winter conditions. In the 80’s we lived on Highway 61, outside of Thunder Bay, on the Canadian side near Big Candy Mountain. I’ve driven to Grand Portage and Duluth in the dead of winter, and so I know what you’re talking about.
Personally, I think a 4 Runner is the perfect vehicle for you. It’s eminently superior to a CRV. For one thing, it has 8 air bags and a frame, so which one would you rather be driving if you skidded on the road and hit a rock cut up there on an icy road? I know my answer. Also, I would never buy a Limited, or AWD, I’d rather drive carefully, and if conditions warrant it, have full control over engaging 4x4. I use Blizzaks in winter, and they make a big difference. I’ve driven Highway 61 when the road was closed due to snow, and at the time I was driving a 1980, jacked up, Toyota 4x4 pickup. The police had a roadblock, but they let me through. I had it in 4x4, with good tires and it was fine. When the roads are snow packed, it’s no problem driving in 4x4.
My ORP has a sun roof, and I am 6’2”. I love the seating position in a Toyota Tacoma and 4 Runner. I have the seat low like a sports car. Also, btw, my 4 Runner has KDSS, and it is quite an improvement, imho. On the big roads, and in the mountainous roads of northern Minnesota, you will love it. Avoid a Pro, though because it doesn’t come with KDSS. Good luck!

 

The new RAV4 hybrids are pretty slick. Surprising amount of power and awd and good efficiency. I love driving my mothers around.

 

plus with a small lift, rims, and tires they can look really good.

 

I love my 4Runner in the winter! We moved to northern Maine two years ago from south Texas, so I had zero experience driving in snow or ice. I have studded tires for the winter, but I have been so surprised how well my 4Runner handles!

 

4Runner will always get you there, and tow the other guy out of the ditch. They are perfect for our type of use, which includes intense rough unpaved and very rough roads, mud rock and sand, and overlanding with no road.
I lived for many years in the snowy NY mountains. If you are 100% on pavement with snow that invariably gets plowed before you drive, I would stick with something more modern and smaller and more efficient and luxurious, with a modern full time 4wd system. My all time fave was an Audi Quattro and also loved Mercedes GLKs and BMW X5s etc. Love them Michelin Defender LTX rubber. Now there are more great choices.

 

I have a 2020 4runner SR5 and a 2013 AWD Honda CR-V.
The only reason I would pick the 4 runner is that there is a lot more ground clearance, more cargo space, and better road visiblity.
The CrV sits a little too low to the ground like a car. The 4 runner is more of a truck feel.
Good luck in your choice!

 

Two winters ago, I towed a CVR out of the ditch that had mistakenly turned onto an unmaintained road during a snow storm. The tow trucks wouldn’t go down it.

 

I end up doing too much towing. I drove an old Bedford wrecker on this island when I was a teenager in the late '60s, and assumed my life as a s a tow truck hustler was over. When it's wet, visitors and random tourists come up my driveway and seem to think from their gps program that it leads to the city of gold or some undiscovered waterfall, occasionally drive off the cement strips when it's wet and get stuck in mud, and wander crying lost up to the house expecting help for their idiocy. These days of covid our gate stays locked unless rare visitors are on the way, but someday we'll open them again. Or touristas just miss a turn on the narrow unpaved main road around the island which passes my driveway and has a steep drop-off thick with jungle foliage. Urgghh.