I don't like it! A three-time 4Runner owner rant

Toyota’s designers have forgotten to put the Utility in Sport Utility Vehicle.

 

It needed to be lower to accentuate the double fu manchu mustache.

 

They are in a strange spot though, seems like upper middle class customers want the 4R to turn into a road hugging 3 row SUV competing with unibody IRS SUVs like Grand Cherokees, one that can also do rugged offroading like a Bronco, while the government wants more MPGs and less emissions on top of it all, all that have to be in a package able to fit in urban parking spots and parking garages.

Maybe Toyota needs to come up with a low volume proper Wrangler competitor since with each gen 4Rs are getting bigger and longer anyway. I don't mind paying 50k-60k for a no compromise BOF offroader that is not expected to be a commuter or family hauler for soccer-birth-givers(/s). But I fully understand that if they do, this new offroader could very well suffer the same fate as the 4R when pavement pounders flock to it for the image then immediately expect it to be molded into another Tahoe and be another entry in the crowded CUV/SUV lineup at Toyota, heavens forbid they buy a Rav4 or Highlander or Grand Highlander or Venza or Crown or Sequoia or Land Cruiser or Corolla Cross or the Lexus vesions of the aforementioned family haulers.

 

It seems to me that everything shifted towards the back. They've got the windshield at a lower angle and the second row is closer to the wheels than the older model.

 

Is it a Toyota thing that you can't upgrade something (power lift gate) without downgrading something else (prop rod instead of hood struts, and no hood insulation)...?

 

Their outfitting vehicles with features is all over the place. In 5th gen you couldn't get automatic dusk sensing headlights without getting a Limited or Pro, but moonroof became almost mandatory toward the end. Somewhere along the way they took out the locking gas cap too.

Now dusk sensing headlights and gas cap lock became standard but then SR5, TRD Sport and OR lose the driver power seat.

 

Toyota’s accountants are calling the shots. Someone probably decided that to attract more soccer moms they needed a powered hatch. To pay for that they needed to cut other items. Meanwhile less expensive SUVs from other manufacturers have had powered hatches with foot activated sensors for decades.

 

With a power tailgate does manually opening and closing it do any damage? I have never owned a vehicle with that feature.

 

My daughter and son-in-law have a 2010 Lexus RX350 with a power tailgate, and it can be opened either way. I didn't even know it had it until the SIL pushed a button one day...

 

They ended up using car logic for a off road specific SUV. There are places in the world where an FJ70 can still be bought brand new. Sadly the USA isn’t one of them.

I am still of the mindset that something like power windows are a “luxury” option. I don’t need em and would totally opt for hand crank windows if offered. Surely don’t need heated steering wheels or in car wifi. People love this stuff tho. I think I’ll keep my 5th gen as long as possible. And if I ever needed to replace it, I am probably looking to import a 25 year old SUV via grey market.

 

Power windows stopped being a luxury item when economy of scales made them cost less than manual window mechanism. This is because making 100 million more complex items may cost less per item than 1 million of less complex items.

 

Would you opt for them if there was no price difference?

 

A car that I want to keep for a long time? hell yeah.

A disposable car that I don't intend on keeping past 10 years? Meh.

My personal round about when I go to work and about town is a 20 year old Corolla with manual windows, lock, and transmission. I would buy it again today if they made a new exact copy over the new Corolla with the CVT and power everything any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I recently bought a 2025 model year sub compact sedan with manual transmission to replace it once the corolla goes to my kids, and if the new car came with manual windows I would have opted for it.

 

Haven't done it very often but we have a '14 JGC with power lift gate. I, and others, have pulled it open faster or slammed it shut on multiple occasions. Can't tell you exactly how many in its lifetime but maybe a dozen each way? Jeeps aren't exactly known for their electronics quality either but after 11 years, it's very reliable (knock on wood)

 

Fair enough.

There was a thread about few years back where folks were wanting manual windows and locks and a lower price tag. But, my assumption is that it's easier (and cheaper) for Toyota to only offer one option to simplify the manufacturing process. And, the vast majority of consumers would prefer power windows and locks.

FWIW, I haven't had a power window fail on a Toyota. I'm not saying that it doesn't/can't happen. But, I think they're pretty reliable.

I fully agree about the CVT. I'm not at all interested in ever owning a vehicle with one. With a smaller vehicle, I prefer manual. It's unfortunate that we're getting less and less vehicles offered with manual transmissions. While I understand it from the manufacturers' perspective, I just enjoy driving a manual more.

 

Our absolute tank of a sedan, our 99 Camry, had its right rear window motor go out at around the 15 year mark, and left rear is currently on its last legs. I suspect not being used as much as the front is a factor.

I understand that I’m in the small minority of people in how long I keep my cars so I am not as ardent in manual windows as say, manual transmissions, but that too I know is a losing battle so I’ve come to terms with it.

 

This is a good thread - and I tend to agree with a lot of what FourBelugas is saying as I tend to keep my daily drivers for a long time. I bought my first new car (1990 Acura Integra) over 35 years ago. In that time I've only had 4 daily driver vehicles. I've kept all my vehicles for at least 12-13 years. My second vehicle (2002 Honda Civic) - I only drove for 8 years - but I kept it for 14 - it became my oldest son's daily driver in high school and he drove it until he graduated from college and bought his own car. Before the 2023 4R Limited I have now I had a 2010 Tacoma TRD Sport. I've definitely tended to buy vehicles that I expect to be very reliable/long lasting - and so far they all have been. This was my primary concern when deciding to buy my 2023 4R Limited. Setting aside the fact that I would never buy any vehicle in its first model year - I probably would not have bought a 6th Gen 4R if I had waited to replace the Tacoma until 2024/2025. In fact, I decided to replace the 2010 Tacoma in 2023 because I was unsure if 2023 or 2024 would be the last 5th Gen year. The extra HP and gas mileage of the 6th Gen sounds great - but I wouldn't give up any reliability/longevity/utility for either. I'm not necessarily saying I would have - the 6th Gen may prove to be a very reliable/long lasting vehicle - I certainly hope it does. Just wasn't willing to bet $50K+ on it. One other thing - no way would I buy an SUV, of similar size compared to the 4R, that wouldn't allow the rear seats to fold flat or that cargo space to be easily accessed from the rear passenger doors . Talk about taking the U out of SUV. We frequently take the 4R on camping, biking, hiking, floating trips with the rear seats folded flat and the entire cargo area loaded with gear, coolers, firewood, etc... Isn't this why one would buy an SUV to begin with? It sure as hell isn't for the neck snapping acceleration or gas mileage.

 

I had manual window lift mechanisms break in various ways (cables, guides), so lets not romanticize it as invincible forever tech.

 

Very good point. New/better/more convenient doesn't necessarily mean less reliable. Between the two of us, my wife and I have owned 9 vehicles over the last 35+ years. All of these vehicles were bought new - and all but two of them had power windows/locks. Never had an issue with a power window, moonroof, seat, or door lock malfunctioning, in all that time, on any of the vehicles.

 

The problems in the past, where Toyota mostly used a single powered cam, was that people hanging/leaning on an opened gate or unevenly putting pressure on the gate would cause a misalignment issue.

,For current models, I hear that the double-powered cam system is supposed to solve much of that problem.

 

Everything eventually breaks with enough usage. The point is, can it be fixed when it breaks, or will it be reliant on being able to find an electric part, or worse, a connected module and software to sync or calibrate the component to the body control module/CANBUS/etc 15+ years down the road. For mass market models like Corollas and Camrys that's not as much of an issue with 1/4 to 1/2 million units sold each year in the US, there is probably a steady source of part suppliers be it OEM or aftermarket that supports most of the parts. For lower volume vehicles, who knows.

In my experience I have never had a manual window break on me, but did have a Camry's power window go out.

 

That is true. I have fixed a couple manual windows in my life but so far have not had to fix a motorized window.

 

My other daily is a 2003 Tacoma Prerunner. It doesn't have one issue after 22 years. I was thinking the other day I would be thrilled if I could buy the same truck new.

 

Lot of info here. I am on my 7th 4R since 2008. Usually trade every 2 years or close, best ROI of anything on 4 wheels, my opinion only. Just drove 944 miles from central Florida to Louisville, KY for delivery of a TRD-OR-PT-4WD-Premium, Everest. VIN : JTEVA5BR2S5004371. Stopped in PA to see relatives,
565 miles on the odo now, head back to FL soon. Only complaint, no dual AC/Heat. Our Tacoma TRD has it. Did a lot of shopping, caught an allotment from the dealer before it went to production. Long wait since January. Only changes to make, trip to Michelin dealer for LTX/MS2's.

 

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I trade often too and do the same thing with that same Michelin between 5,000 and 10,000 miles ... at Costco on sale.

I like the way Costco rotates the tires and they torque them to spec with a manual torque wrench and NOT an air wrench.