When the new 4R finally arrives there might not be any room on dealer lots for them

Sorry for the book sized post.

I think Toyota will be OK. I don't believe, yet, that they have lost their way.
They are still taking care of the problems that crop up. They are replacing 100,000 engines in the Tundras. While many of us are pointing to that as evidence of the problem, I would ask what other company would replace 100,000 engines??
Let's not forget the 3vz head gaskets that were resolved, the 4th gen propeller shafts that were replaced, the 2016/17 Tacoma auto transmission woes that were remedied (I guess, sorta, depends who you ask), the fuel pump TSB on my 2019 when they (Toyota) sent me a letter in 2023 noting that the TSB appeared to have not been addressed on my vehicle.

Compare that to my experience with Hyundai. My wife had a 2012 Sonata when we met. It was a very nice car. But they have the known valve carbon concern due to GDI and that weighed on my mind. Shortly after her basic 5yr/60K warranty had expired, the ABS light comes on and turns out to be the clock spring. Oh great, that's gonna cost. We decide to bite the bullet and take it in only to be informed that "Oh yeah, that's been a thing. There is an extended service campaign on that. We'll fix you up". Great for us, but hey Hyundai, how about a letter, an e mail, carrier pigeon, something. A co-worker had a similar experience with a very new Hyundai something (Tucson or Santa Fe I think) that had a valve cover leak that subsequently fouled the alternator from the leakage. He had it repaired independently only to learn through the grapevine that there was a service campaign there as well. He complained and was directed to a process to turn in his bill and would be reimbursed. He got his money eventually but had to jump through cumbersome hoops to get it. It left a bad taste in both our mouths regarding Hyundai. It just seemed they took a wait and see if anyone complains attitude. My coworker and I both ended up dumping our Hyundais. We sold her 2012 Sonata and replaced it with a low mileage 2005 RX330 that is still running like a top despite being 7 years older than the Sonata. My friend at work took advantage of a Hyundai buyback due to issues with the vehicles dual clutch transmission.

As far as complexity, yes, they are getting more complex, but as others have mentioned in this or another thread, Toyota is slow to bring new stuff out and they mostly ensure the reliability of the new stuff they bring out. And most of that stuff is peripheral and won't leave you stranded. The engine in the new 4Runner/Tacoma has been out since 2021 in one of the Lexus models so Toyota would be aware if there is some major issue. The transmission in the Tacoma may be something or nothing. Give them some time to work it through - because they will work it through. A lot of us car guys like to point out how "new" things are just bound to fail more frequently but my 3rd gen had a lot of sensors and valves and switches that worked perfectly for 25 years and 285,000 miles. If you asked me in 1998 I would have admitted that a lot of that stuff was "just more stuff to break down".

I agree that workforce quality going forward will be a real hurdle. We will just have to see how things play out. And it's both the workers and the companies. When I started my career in the mid 80s I got three months of training/mentoring. When I retired last year the same company wanted new hires up and running in 7-10 days...

 

Population structure is only part of the problem.

A bigger issue that impacts all industrialized countries: we have been telling young people for 3 generations now that to achieve success, they need to go to college to get a white collar job, and in the process created a university-loan industrial complex that traps young people in debt just to achieve degree inflation and now millions of young people with college degrees can't land jobs that they have come to expect(30-50 dollars per hour out of school, in the US, for example).

Look at Japan or US or Germany or France or UK in the 1970s and 1980s, young people were okay with getting a factory or trade job making okay pay. It's not sexy but that's how an industrial economy works.

Today? They are constantly being told to go to college because without a college degree they will have upward mobility issues. But when they get out of college, they are not just competing with themselves but also inflow of population(Japan has a large immigrant population believe it or not), not to mention a post bubble economy in the case of Japan, and post-NAFTA world in the US, jobs flowing to Poland and Slovakia in the case of Germany.

Reality is, there is NEVER an easy solution to achieve a functional economy. There has to be a certain percentage of people willing to work in trades for modest wages. If everyone expects a high paying white collar job out of university(that everyone is entitled to, paid for by the tax payers) then don't be surprised that no one wants to work in factories.

 

From overflowing dealer lots to socio-economic challenges of a depopulating country. This thread got it all.

 

just to add gasoline to the fire: college educated people taking out 6+ year loans to buy 50k 4runners to drive to their 50k a year jobs is why Toyota is confident charging 60k for next gen 4runners.

 

100% agree.

 

Now let's dive into a discussion on the pros and cons of KDSS and its ownership implications.

JK JK.

 

The college thing is an interesting one. Is having a college degree and advantage anymore?

Everyone has a bachelors these days. Masters feels like a minimum unless you go the trade or startup route.

 

A ton of basic entry level office jobs now requires a bachelor's degree and pay under 20 dollars an hour even in major metro areas like the Bay Area. With the wide availability of free or low cost state universities and online schools, it's the new high school degree.

For an extreme case, look at China. This year they graduate something like 12 million bachelor's degrees holders, and many if not most of them resort to getting a Masters just to stay above water and even then it's bad for graduate degree holders. As a result in reality something like 50-60% of 18-24 year olds there not in school are jobless, even the gig work companies require a BA or BS.

Back to the US, if college degrees are such golden keys to a comfortable life, why is the current white house so hell bent on student loan forgiveness with such a booming economy? The equilibrium has been broken for a long time now with 18 year olds having not just easy but encouraged access to loans to waste 4-6 years of their lives just to end up working a 40k a year office job or worse yet, starbucks or something.

 

Every manufacturer would be replacing those engine because it’s a safety recall. Toyota isn’t doing it out of kindness. They are forced to. Before that they were trying to sweep it under the rug and giving owners a hard time about repairs.

 

When high schools graduate kids with only an 8th grade proficiency in reading and math, the high school diploma means nothing. That’s why employers treat a B.A. as a baseline qualification. But I also blame the kids for their choices. Choosing majors with no vocational benefit.

Recently I met a young lady, while in for a PET scan. She was about my daughter’s age, and while she was injecting radioactive liquids into me I asked her a few questions:

Spalding: “Excuse me young lady. What’s your job description?”

Young lady: “I’m a nuclear medical technician.”

Spalding: “And how does one become a nuclear medical technician?”

Young lady: “It’s a 4-year degree.”

Spalding: “Post graduate?”

Young lady: “ Nope. Undergraduate.”

Spalding: “Feel free not to answer this, but would you mind telling me what a nuclear medical technician makes?”

Young lady: “$85k”.

So here’s a girl who couldn’t have been more than 25 years old, straight out of college, making a good living by any measure. Because she treated school as vocational. She didn’t “follow her dreams”. Nobody dreams of being a nuclear medical technician. She followed a career path right out of high school by purposefully choosing a useful and lucrative degree.

 

it's amazing what one can do if one's expectation is not being able to sit at home and be a FAANG recruiter making 200k a year with a mass communications degree.

 

$85K isn’t that great if you have $200K in school loans though.

 

It beats the hell out of $30k.

 

All this, plus as a reviewer mentioned when these first came out, there's nothing special about it when compared to its competition. They didn't do anything revolutionary or introduce anything new. In fact, when compared to the Ford EcoBoost hybrid, they dropped the ball on having the aux electrical power capability. I think even on non-hybrids Fords, a 2KW inverter is available.

 

Then boy and girl meet, get married, buy house for loan of say minimum $250k, have a baby, and just pile on the debt. That’s why kids today are not getting married and having kids. Who wants to strap on all that debt in early 20s

 

People young and even older aren’t getting married because of the internet and dating apps, they might date someone but they’re always waiting and wanting someone better for guys it’s a younger and hotter female and for girls it’s for a more rich and successful and hotter guy

also young kids in their 20s don’t want to work at all they want everything instantly and given to them due to social media

 

OK boomer, way to generalize an entire population based on absolutely nothing. All the "kids" I know in their 20's are working jobs while going to school to hopefully find a career. Cost of living is no where near as affordable currently as it was when I was in my 20's, so kids trying to make it on their own are currently at a huge disadvantage compared to 20 years ago. Don't believe everything you watch on Fox News.

 

I was going to say something similar but was trying to be nice today.

 

I’m not a boomer I’m 30 and I don’t watch Fox News I know a lot of kids in their 20s and most kids in their 20s are lazy and entitled

 

A lot of kids are working hard too, fighting the same inflation and interest rates we are, some staying with Mom and Dad longer to save for home down payments, holding off on marriage and kids and then the smart ones are fighting to put money in the 401ks now while they are young. Thank goodness I had that advice when I was in my early 20s. Yes regardless of what news you watch it’s tough for all of them like us. I can’t imagine trying to buy a 4Runner in my 20s and paying the interest. Everyone is different though and I guess that is what keeps the world moving. I wish all those young folks the best.

 

There are lots of options for young people to mitigate student debt.

• Get a degree in a field for which graduates are in demand and are well compensated - treat college as vocational education rather than “following your dreams.”
• There is lots of scholarship money out there - scholarship funds are required to distribute scholarship money - apply for lots of scholarships; one’s education can be funded by several smaller awards as easily as one large award.
• If you are female go for a STEM degree and you will absolutely get a scholarship.
• Go to a state school in your own state to pay in-state tuition.
• Get all the general ed required for your major out of the way at a community college at a very low cost and then transfer to a state school for the big stuff.
• Work your way through school.
• Make your own coffee.
• Work hard in high school in case you want to choose a college that still considers academic merit as a qualification.
• Most of the new college graduates I knew kept their apartments and roommates for a few years after graduating while they moved up the ladder - the move towards adulting was a process rather than an event.

 

I tend to think a lot of kids are lazy and haven't been taught to be responsible by their parents. If you can't afford an expensive college, go to one where you can

Unfortunately some kids go to schools they can't afford . My daughter worked her tail off in high school , goes to a Division 1 school, has had everything covered with scholarships and will graduate 100% debt free. She is a senior and applying to grad schools to get her PhD. Thanks to her hard work, I used part of the money we had set aside for her college tuition and purchased my Pro.

 

Since this thread has already gone off the rails, I will just say that when our kids were in kindergarten we started college funds for both of them. Both got undergrad degrees with zero debt. My daughter finished early and had over half of her masters covered before having to start teaching to cover the rest. My son stopped at the undergrad level, is doing very well, and owns a home. As parents we believed one or our parental responsibilities was to educate our children.

 

Thanks for that link. Here was the defining statement in that review, in my opinion:

"Somehow, Toyota ended up with a brand-new truck that drives like it’s a generation behind the Ram, Chevy, and Ford."

 

If only it were that easy.

 

My wife was similar. Free ride for undergrad but then had $100K of loans for grad school. Still paying them off 20 years later.

 

What degree did she get may I ask?

 

Doctorate of Physical Therapy

 

Borrowing money for a degree is stupid unless that degree is in hardcore science. Go right a head and borrow a million dollars to become a brain surgeon, you can pay that debt off within 5 years max. But borrowing 100 grand to study literature is STUPID!!!!
My two kids are in tech and I am proud of them, and neither of them has a Masters degree.

 

Might be the most off rails thread on this entire forum. Lmao