When the new 4R finally arrives there might not be any room on dealer lots for them

Unfortunately, auto industry just like every other industry does not operate in a vaccume and are severely affected by emerging trends, public prescription, public image etc.

The market for gas guzzling engines is over.
A 4lt NA engine is in contrast to everything an auto manufacturer wants to project themselves as making going into 2025 and further. The smaller turbos are reasonably powerful, efficient, better mpgs plus it makes the manufacturer looks good as someone in compliance with where the industry is heading. The stringent emissions norms that have been adopted also limits what manufacturers can use and not use.

Hell even the iconic Lamborghini v12 has been retired. Some can argue what is a Lamborghini without that V12. So axing an aging V6 in a SUV is hardly Catastrophic.

In the end, the trends dictate the direction a manufacturer takes and the trend is to provide smaller displacement engines with smaller turbos that are efficient, still provide with enough power and have a perceived smaller carbon foot print.

In all of this, we as buyers are devoid of a perfectly fine product that did most things right over the last 2 decades.

 

Blame California…
For everything…

 

One of my classic cars was from California. It took me days of work to rip all that no longer working emissions bullshit out of the car and to get it running well again. Ironically, it was producing MORE emissions because of that equipment. Imagine this, the car had an additional air pump just for startup, with replacement one costing thousands, to reduce minuscule amount of emissions while engine is cold. 20lb metal gizmo that was carried everywhere while in use only 1-2 minutes after cold start. What a waste.

California needs to go their own way on emissions, like back in the day when car manufacturers did not make everything to California emissions standards.

 

I think a lot of not all new cars have that air pump system. It failed on the WRX I had. I just disabled it and it’s check engine code.

 

Fair points. I don't disagree with the technical basis of the concerns.

To avoid the straw man argument both ways, the new engine offers more power and low end torque. Yes the mileage gains likely are minimal but the perks are a combination off all the above. Benefits and risks are two sides of the same coin. How it will actually play out is TBD.

Every major change comes with controversy but many end up becoming normal. Was electric start doubted by people preferring the fail proof 'ol crank handle. Was fuel injection doubted because "you can't fix it on side of the road". Was ABS cause for worry because of expensive repairs? Is there anyone now that wishes these innovations never became standard?

I aim to keep my 4R for 20 years. I understand the desire of the simple 5th gen that so many of us value. I get it. I just don't feel the need to be overly critical of a new design before the evidence is actually clear.

As for the Toyota tax, if Toyota looses their image in all of this, another company will fill the role.

 

Not true. The new Revuelto has a 6.5L V12. What you're referring to is the previous V12 in the Aventador, which was the last pure naturally-aspirated V12 engine.

The Revuelto V12 is a new combustion engine that works together with three electric motors.

 

Exactly my point! The greatest NA V12 died with the LP 780-4.
Electric motors have no business being in a Lamborghini but they had to do it to change with the times. Still better than a Ferrari, that plans to be an all electric manufacturer going forward. Tesla in fancy clothes.

 

CARB. It's CARB. EPA can change direction at the federal level but CARB can't be reasoned with.

 

Correct. CARB are rabid animals that sometimes mandate things that are worse than they were. They need to be put down.

 

I just saw the ID.Buzz today and I think they are running in the same issue as the 4Runner… it was supposed to be out a while ago, they are just bringing the training vehicle around and the inbound cars are held at point for “quality”

 

That's gonna really drive the demand for a 60+k(probably 70+k for a while) EV Van with ~200 miles of real world range.

 

Yea the ID.Buzz is basically DOA. The concept was so cool and everyone was all hot for it but of course that was before actual real world pricing revealed. Reality tends to set in once these EV hit the market and people realize that EVs are still so highly priced and not a good deal for their prices.

 

California and the other states that agree with similar air pollution regs......

Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Oregon, New Jersey, Minnesota, Nevada, New Mexico, Vermont, Virginia, and Washington.

 

It’s only got like 6 cup holders for 7 passengers and 4 of them are upfront… middle row gets 0 remaining 2 are in the back row.

might as well be the fucking kiss of death in America. My 2017 Taco I think I over a dozen.

 

That's pathetic!

Cup holders are an underrated feature. One of my favorite things about the 4Runner is that it has grown up size cup holders. My '15 Taco had wimpy little cup holders, and so does my Chevy work truck. I'm not sure who the heck thinks that's acceptable.

 

You can never have enough cup holders especially on road trips. My kids job before a trip is to fill up every spot in all the doors with bottles of water.

 

The only viable market for it are well off white collar Septuagenarian and Octogenarians who want a "last car" to relive their LSD and weed infused college years while their blue collar counterparts were drafted to fight in Vietnam. There might be a few outliers who want it but an expensive people mover that costs more than most Americans' annual salary and can't drive on the highway for more than 2.5 hours without needing to recharge is a niche one, for sure.

If it was a more basic 30-40k one I can see a lot of families may want to at least look at it, but not those who don't have dedicated garage space or charging set up where they live.

 

I read the whole thread, exhausting, lol. Apples and oranges but my wife has a 24 GMC Acadia AT4 AWD with a 2.5 turbo 4. It’s based on gm’s 2.7 truck turbo 4 that has been out for a while now. It’s very comfortable, gets 25-30 mpg and rather big inside.

My 23 OR 4runner gets about 19mpg, rides rougher, less room inside, way less tech, but it’s a lot of fun for me to drive around the many trails in our area. But for longer trips the GMC is much better imho. I wouldn't afraid of the 6th generation 4banger 4runner especially in a couple years from now.

 

For just on road driving with people the best offering Toyota has currently in my view is the Venza, 35k starting price for a 40mpg crossover built in Japan that rides great and a lot of room inside.

if 3rd row is needed the grand highlander hybrid is a terrific value.

 

I don’t argue about personal taste since it varies for everyone. That said, GMC’s build quality reflects the typical approach of many American cars: cheap plastic, “good enough” solutions, and a lack of longevity, unlikely to make it to 300,000 miles. In contrast, my 4Runner offers excellent build quality, a squeak-free interior, straightforward yet nearly flawless design choices, and a durability that far surpasses a GMC.

 

Unfortunately Toyota appears to be striving for GMs mediocrity.

 

I think we are at the point it will be better to just keep the frame and body of the older models of 4Runners and replace the parts as long as the hard mounting points for the control arms, axles and shocks on the frame are still solid. I myself am looking at maybe just getting a 3rd gen unit in decent condition and a donor to learn how to do everything myself. Starting with the 6th gen once the parking brake and steering become electric the whole car becomes a brick if those things fail and not easily repaired by two hands and some duct tape because you can't even roll them or park them yourself anymore.

the newer crossovers they make in the US, canada and Japan are well built and all but you are in a world of hurt if any one of the vital function modules fail and you need factory software to do anything.

 

Electric parking/emergency brakes are the dumbest invention in modern vehicles.

 

My gut reflex on GM quality is to agree with you but I just bought my wife a new 2025 Silverado (LT Trail Boss with the 6.2l) and I am very impressed with the overall quality. Lots of little details that have really stood out for me…and it feels like a bank vault compared to my 4R and my previous Tundras.

(caveat-the only reason I bought it was because her 2018 Silverado’s transmission shit the bed at 80k miles and I wasn’t going to spend $7k to fix it)

 

We were originally shopping for a grand highlander, even put down $, test drove both when the G highlander came in, and chose the Acadia. It just drove better, more room and is more comfortable. It’s not a 4runner, but neither is a grand highlander.

Having said all that my point was to not fear a turbo4. It’s a little different but I think people will be impressed.

 

I don't think the reliability of a gas turbo and a diesel turbo can be compared

 

The people that don't know any better in regards to the 22 and 23 Tundra engine and tranny failures are still buying the 24s. The 25s are on the lots as well. I wouldn’t buy the 3rd gen based on looks alone. It's a cosmetic nightmare. The 24 Tacos are showing up on lots due to their tranny failures and people are getting rid of them before theirs fails. My local dealer has a Pro with 3K miles on it and they said it's an excellent truck. Evidently not. They are also very small inside. The 25 4R will have its issues too.

 

Why? The turbo works differently when combined with gas or diesel engine? People afraid of the turbo but it’s not a failure point in modern engines.