snow driving in parking lots sucks - normal or just a me issue?

So an AWD with a two speed transfer case… same as a G Wagon. Wait the G Wagon has three lockers so it can actually go up the same trails an off road can and can go up trails an off road can’t because sometimes you need a front locker as well.

 

Full time 4WD is a capable system but it only slightly better than the Subaru Forester we had years ago. No rear locker, no thanks.

 

The full time 4wd of the limited might be comparable to what mercedes calls AWD on the g wagon. But it’s not comparable to just about any other “AWD “ system on car based suvs or cars, not in construction, nor in design. Calling it a full-time system is more accurate because it’s essentially the same as the part-time transfer case, with the addition of a differential. It doesn’t need a differential-lock to be a full time case…it needs a differential.

Interestingly, the new 4runner Limited Full-time 4wd won’t come standard with a center differential locker. They want to push buyers into more expensive packages to get a center lock.

 

So, what makes the full-time 4wd on the toyota only slightly better than a forester?

edit: to clarify, I’m talking about the full-time transfer case…not rear or front differential lockers.

 

I think in these situations, the fact there is snow on the ground should allow binding tensions to release fairly easily. Maybe the some snows are more “crunchy” sounding, which might make it sound worse than it actually is. Because of that, I think generally I wouldn’t bother taking it out of 4wd. The transfer case will hate anybody trying to take it out of 4wd in parking lot situations. It’s going to be hard to unwind the binding enough to effect a smooth shift out of 4wd.

I suppose some types of deep snow could cause extreme binding if tightly turning, so I guess it’s case by case. But even then, it’s a pain to find the space (in a parking lot) to unload the binding. Even on a dial operated TC, sending the command to shift into 2wd wont work if there is tension in the system.

 

4WD and AWD are, at their core, purely marketing terms with rough semi-agreed-upon definitions of both but there are plenty of vehicles that may blur the lines.

Shifting into 4Hi in a part-time system and locking a center differential in a full-time system are identical, all else equal.

There are plenty of variation, as in Kia calls “applying more pressure to center clutch” a “locking center differential” which effectively is similar as 4Hi as we know it but not technically accurate. (and with other caveats)

Fun fact, the Land Cruiser 200 and manual first-gen RAV4 both have center lockers but the Land Cruiser has a limited-slip center and low range, among other features, that put it above that cute ute off pavement.

The system in the 5th gen Limited is the same in design as the 4WD/AWD/whatever systems in the 4th gen 4Runner, the Lexus GX, LC200, LC250, etc.

Subaru (and others) have a solid drivetrain for inclement weather and I’d expect it to perform well in snow, etc, like the Limited. I suspect conditions, tires, or not using/needing the center locker or low range could also be factors as neither system are miracle workers.

For trails that require a rear locker, that isn’t a problem inherent to the full-time system as the SR5’s and TRD Sport have part-time systems without a rear locker.

For a lot of light-to-moderate trails, A-TRAC will do. I think folks here will be surprised where I’ve been able to drag my Kia crossover with some patience, line-picking and letting traction control do its thing as it had the flexibility of plywood.

 

Subarus use a viscus coupling and a version of A-Trac. The only difference since they are both full time 4WD is the fact that the 4Runner has a two speed transfer case and a center locker. The Subaru calls it AWD and may others with systems exactly like the 4Runner). If Subaru came out with a two speed transfer case they would be almost identical in performance but without rear lockers they are “Limited” to what they can do off road compared to traditional systems with lockers.

 

Thank you! This is what I’ve been saying. I even mentioned the SR5 limitations as well. 100% the terms are purely marketing what matters is how they function and at best a 5th gen limited is a SR5 so if you hit hard trails like my friends and I do then rear lockers and a lift are a must and a minimum. This all started because someone mentioned that the Limited can do anything an Off Road trim can. Thank you for also speaking up.

 

Ah, I see, you’re talking generally about traction for a vehicle as a whole, and not necessarily about AWD vs. full-time 4wd vs. part time 4wd transfer cases.

I was more responding to the statement that suggested that AWD and a 4runner with a Full-time transfer case were the same (or just marketing terms). Which is not the case at all, from a mechanical and durability perspective. Like you mentioned, lots of cars that use the term AWD, don’t even have transfer cases at all, and most use viscous couplings, or clutch packs to send small amounts of power to the rear wheels. These systems create heat in the process of transferring power. Lots of heat if you are constantly requiring drive power to the rear wheels.

In comparison to viscous/clutch friction based AWD vehicles, full or part time 4wd systems make no heat when driving all four wheels. You could be lifting one wheel or another all day long, and a 4wd transfer case wont overheat. It wouldn’t even notice, because both the full time transfer and part time transfer case mechanically transmit power to both front and rear driveshafts via gears and chains that don’t slip. That’s not just a small technicality.

A subaru and a 4runner limited might have similar limitations due to low body plastics/clearance or lack of lockers, but that doesn’t mean AWD and full time 4wd are equivalent. Not by a long shot.

 

This is hilarious!

Keep it coming. We love a good laugh around here.

 

before I say anything like - You're out of your fucking mind.

https://www.reddit.com/r/subaru/comments/xmacic/awd_vs_4wd/

you have the entire world of information at your fingertips...

https://jalopnik.com/national-park-service-will-cite-drivers-of-awd-cars-for-1851617315

Watch this video. These things aren't comparable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHMDtEPeuQM

Am I missing something in what you're saying?

Esit: I was missing something and I'm sorry for coming off like a jackass.

 

The 3rd and 5th gens had an AWD mode. If you got the limited between 2000-2002 it had a lockable center diff. Making it a rare vehicle to be 2wd, AWD, and 4wd.

A better description is 4wd is a 2 way splitter, where power is sent to both axles, and will continue to do so even if a tire on one slips. AWD has no split, so it technically is like a 4wd until a wheel slips, them all power is sent to the spinning wheel. This is conventional description, now AWD often has traction control to stop a spinning wheel through braking.

AWD and 4wd is the same difference as an open differential and a locking diff, because that is exactly what it is, just between the axles.

That's a you problem, I love snowy parking lots. Doing donuts in my 4runner is just part of winter. I find that the turning radius is worse in 4wd, it is binding but if you're in snow it isn't bad enough to do damage.

 

Yeah, your missing a lot. When did I say they were the same? I didn’t I clearly stated how they differ. I have off-roaded both a forester and a 4Runner Limited and the take away is the Limited was not enough of a difference and was not made for serious off-roading. It is a step up form a basic AWD and the two speed transfer case an and locking center diff is nice but A-Trac will only do so much. Subaru AWD < Limited full time 4wd < anything with proper lockers

 

I don't think anyone would disagree that an Off-Road model is better offroad than a Limited, but the differences have nothing to do with the transfer case / center diff.

The issue is you keep saying the full time system is AWD and basically a crossover because it doesn't have a rear locker, and the two are really unrelated. In fact, there are several models with the full time 4wd and a rear locker (or even a front locker, in the LC100 / LX470), and I can tell you the center diff is not a limiting factor.

 

The limited still has a lockable center differential.

The distinction with the "multi-mode" transfer case was the option of 2hi, which isn't a function of the differential.

 

There's no doubt that lockers add real capability. But, they're not an absolute necessity for serious off-roading.

My locker actually hasn't worked in 2 years, and I've been running increasingly difficult trails with 4lo and A-TRAC. At this point, if I had to choose between a rear locker and A-TRAC, I'd choose A-TRAC. Of course, both would be ideal. But, I'm getting by fine without the locker.

Aside from this, lockers can be added to any trim. So, the Limited really has the same potential as any trim, plus the option of full-time 4wd, which is a huge benefit in snowy climates.

 

Can you post up some pictures of you on trails that your locker gets you through that would be impossible for a Limited to get through? I’ve had Rubicons with front and rear lockers and this was never my experience off roading with people some locked and some unlocked.

 

I'm sorry my bad

 

More and more it's pretty much just speed IMO. Just need more momentum.... lately I've been wondering why I need atrac or anything. I dont use it. Maybe for a series of big rocks.

Spent a lot of time in 4lo last week. Had my locker on at times but my buddy in his SR5 taco without a locker went everywhere I did and struggled just as much where I did.

 

Momentum can lead to damage. I'll bump it occasionally to get past a tough spot, but I prefer to use finesse whenever possible.

A-TRAC can help you get traction even in places a rear locker won't. It's one of the best features we have, IMO.

 

Maybe one day I'll DM you and ask how to turn the ATRAC on as that would be too embarrassing to ask publicly.

 

Push the button. I think it only works in 4lo.

 

—> @Thatbassguy ?
I was dying laughing last night here

 

Yes, my experience with lockers in my Rubicons is that they’re useful in large rocks crawling along at 1-2MPH and as a “it’s worth a try” if you’re high centered or something. In deep mud, rutted out trails, deep snow, etc I always turn traction control off and push on through with momentum. I’ve yet to even need ATrac in my Limited and I’ve been in some pretty hairy spots. The couple spots my 4 Runner won’t go that my Rubicon could are tractor ruts that require the front axle to articulate for traction. The IFS on the 4Runner is loads better 99.9% of the time, but in severe ruts / rocks / low traction situations there’s no replacement for a SFA. That said, I wouldn’t trade the IFS for a SFA unless I was only rock crawling. Not enough of an advantage to give up all the advantages the IFS.

And for folks reading this for info on the 4 Runner 4WD systems, other than the rear locker (which automatically disengages at 5MPH or 6MPH anyway) and electronic traction aids (crawl control) the Limited has exactly the same 4WD and 4WD low selections as the SR5, ORP and Pro. And the Limited has A Trac and hill decent control too, which are the most useful electronic aids available IMO.

 

Yeah, I wasn't sure whether to respond, or just laugh.

 

I'm usually the same, except that a lot of the mud pits here have boulders hiding in them. In those situations, 4lo and A-TRAC work well.

Agreed!

MTS and Crawl control seem like cool features, but I never use them.

 

Welcome.

If you live in an area with significant snowfall in the winter, run a dedicated winter tire. The 4Runner will be able to go most places in just 2WD.

 

Not to pile on nitpicky corrections on every post in this thread…but the rear locker does not disengage automatically on 4runners.

Not only does it not automatically disengage, it’s also very finicky to engage and disengage it, since it’s also affected by binding forces between left and right tires. On one trip, I’ve pushed the button to disengage the locker, and wasn’t careful enough to verify it disengaged. Only later, 5 miles down the highway, I finally noticed the locker light flashing on the instrument panel. Had to pull over and mess with it to get it to disengage. Often times, you need to slightly turn the wheel and roll forward/backward slightly until everything is happy, then you hear a loud click from the back indicating it’s engaged or disengaged.

There’s very little about 4wd 4runners (on any trim) that’s automatic. The locker buttons, and the 4wd mode dial…those are all just electric motors to actuate a mechanical operation. A-trac is really the only software/computer controlled operation on a 4runner.

 

Except the transmission