Is Your Car Watching You?

Sorry if there is another thread for this.

https://twitter.com/iluminatibot/status/1840143859277353142

 

Totally....

 

Does Walmart brand aluminum foil protect as well as Reynolds?

 

Everything is watching you now.

 

Yes, it is spying on you and this data is being sold to your insurance . Insurance will use that data to jack up your rates. You should call and opt out of data collection and you should disable DCM (module that sends data to Toyota).

 

Doesn't matter, everyone knows aluminum just amplifies the signals and makes them all go crazy.

This is why mine's made out of copper, like a Faraday cage. Call me Magneto

 

Sin4R, why are you driving in ways that jack up your insurance?

Shouldn't the company that you are insured with know that you are engaging in risky driving? Insurance companies don't willy-nilly raise rates on good drivers. Good drivers' rates go up to cover the losses caused by bad drivers.

Apparently, the way you drive is so risky that the insurance company would raise your rate if they found out.

Don't you think you should pay more if you are a greater risk?

 

After reading through numerous posts about my 4runner spying on me, I did some research online. Crazy how much info your vehicle sends to the manufacturer. My 2014 4runner was nothing like my 2024. Through the toyota app, I was able to request that toyota does not sell my info to 3rd parties, to send me the info that they have collected on me and to delete all of my info. Hopefully, that slows down the spying through my car.

 

The assumption that this supposed “risky driving” detection and the company using it is foolproof is fundamentally flawed.

“Risky driving” can really mean anything from “oh you exceeded speed limit” to “hard braking”, certain G’s and you don’t want computers trying to judge you from that as they cannot know the full context.

Same way some “driving safety” insurance driving trackers incentivize running a red light “smoothly” versus stopping abruptly in the event of an error. It may or may not be the case but some folks absolutely feel that way.

Do not freely give up more data as it will not benefit you in any way and getting errors fixed will be a huge pain. You may like the thought of more “optimization” but you will gain nothing but the sense of wondering whether braking for a pedestrian or other unsafe driver will contribute to increasing your rates. One should not have to worry about that.

There are already numerous factors included in insurance assessments, if someone has to worry about not parking in a slightly-elevated risk area or that “full throttle acceleration” on a highway on-ramp (in a sub-100 mph Mitsubishi Mirage mind you) might ding them then that’s not freedom at all.

This is literally “if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear” in post form.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument

One may have nothing to hide, but it doesn’t mean anyone should be able to purchase every email in my inbox.

Or that having “nothing to hide” today, doesn’t mean nothing to hide tomorrow. Laws, people in power change.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-48401901

This man claimed that “no one would help him over the phone”, so much for computer vision and intelligence. Or we should welcome more surveillance in spite of these errors?

 

20+ years accident free. Plus, I am a licensed race driver. I know more about driving than your typical person.

Insurance, being a mandatory regulated service, is not true market-driven risk mitigation business. As anyone that ever submitted a claim knows, they are in the business of denying you coverage while maximizing premiums.

So to answer your question - I am just driving. Insurance, unable to arbitrarily to jack up rates due to regulatory oversight, is looking for any excuse to do so legally. Any kind of data collection program will always, on average, result in higher premiums across insured pool. This was well-documented, that they penalize you based on arbitrary metrics that are not reflective of your risks.

When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me.

Now you are just making an ass out of yourself with evidence-free baseless attacks.

 

@Sin4R consider the source. There is definitely an ass in there somewhere...

 

I like to randomly disable and enable mine, you can disable and enable as you like. If I was analyzing my data I would just discard it due to the sporadic incomplete nature of it. Anything I can do to mess with insurance companies gives me great pleasure.

 

That's a laugh....I have NEVER had an accident or ticket and my insurance company just doubled my rates! I dumped them after many years with them and cut my costs for now until new company jacks them up. No more loyalty for me. I will switch every year if I have to.

 

Just an FYI....

Your laptops and other computers do the same thing and hackers use this window to hack you!
You need to disable sending feedback feature to Microsoft etc. it gives hackers a doorway into your info.

 

I assume if the stock radio is removed the DCM will not work?

Also, damd crazy people and insurance trampling on our 4th amendment.

 

I believe the DCM is a separate component, start with calling in via the SOS button and navigate to a representative to disable your connection. (have your VIN handy)

However, I believe 2019 and earlier models (until it was introduced whenever that was, not too too long ago) rely on a 3G network that’s been decommissioned so just by age you might not have any connection at all. There should be a green/red status light next to the SOS button that blinks on startup and settles on it’s current state.

What really sucks currently is that the 4th amendment only applies to government and hasn’t scaled to our current (and beyond) level of surveillance capitalism.

Police coming to get your location data without cause? Violation.

Police buying your location data from a company that did the gathering? No violation.

 

Good point on 4th amendment. Even though lots of people might be ok with being watched and monitored in all aspects of their life by private coorporations (because they got nothing to hide), when insurance is required by law, it gets mighty close to 4th amendment violations.

 

So what you guys are saying is that even if you don't pay the 8 dollars a month they can still track your vehicle? so if it gets stolen they can track it and let the authorities know then right.

 

Toyota makes more money selling user data that it does on new cars.

 

The connection is active by default and transmitting metrics, etc. regardless of subscription status. It varies now as GM has backpedaled (for now) after backlash but others have continued: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/03/gm-stops-sharing-driver-data-with-brokers-amid-backlash/

If it's stolen, policy varies: https://doctorow.medium.com/vw-woul...pay-for-find-my-car-subscription-bf798d75b244

Folks here may know Cory Doctorow from his coining of the term "enshittification."

Here, VW refuses to allow a mother or law enforcement to track a stolen vehicle and kidnapped child as the mother had not paid the $150 fee. I would not be surprised if low-level customer service reps at all manufacturers are not allowed to make exceptions.

As for making money on user data, automakers likely are undervaluing it - but still making a buck.

The recent Kia Connect gaping security hole allowed access to controls remotely without an active Kia Connect subscription. https://samcurry.net/hacking-kia

 

The data collection/spying discussion is always interesting to me. Especially the part when people argue that it’s ok because personal data is only being used by good corporations against people doing bad things. I bet those arguments tend to come from people who are naive, very trusting, or just trolling.

However, data collection/spying is a small issue to the physical reality that the data collection is happening through two-way communication systems.

The actual physical reality is that nearly every new car with cell-based remote start, lane keeping/electric steering, electronic cruise etc, can be (at least in part) controlled remotely by someone that is NOT the owner.

Mother Theresa can be the CEO of the contractor Toyota uses to manage their remote services, but it doesn’t matter if she doesn’t know how to make a safe network that won’t be hacked. In other words, you can believe that global mega corporations always want the best for us, but it’s not about the good intentions of corporations.

The systems are hacked, not based on what permissions you’ve granted or what you have opted out of, but rather based on a million other points of entry…including the security of their public websites.

It’s already happened with Kia/Hyundai recently, but years ago with chrysler/GM products.

It’s stupid because network security is a constant job. I highly doubt any car manufacturer is spending anywhere enough money to aggressively maintain security. At least not as much money as other bad actors are paying to hack it. Just think of it, hacking a damn website is enough to get you the keys to the kingdom.

Every single car being made now is one hack away from being remotely controlled.

Recent 4runners are remote controllable in regards to ignition, throttle, and brakes. But they cant be put into drive because the transmission is cable shifted, and aren’t steerable because we don’t have lane keep assist. However, pretty much every other new car will also have steering capability, and shifting capability if the trans is shifted by electronic actuator.

Anybody that doesn’t worry about how easy it is to take over command of one, many, or all cars (at the same time) is severely lacking in imagination.

 

I don't worry and I don't give a shit. So add me to this list.

Everyone here uses a cell phone right? Everyone uses a PC right?

 

False equivalence.

Cell phones, PC's (usually, it may vary) get security updates regularly by companies that generally excel at software.

Not to mention the data generated by those is different, has different uses and is accessible by different parties that themselves have different levels of cybersecurity competence and financial incentives. (Nothing my phone does can be used to void my vehicle warranty nor affect insurance unless I opt-in to such things at this time.)

Oh, and those can be left behind more easily, services from email to service providers can be switched between by the user.

And if one of my gadgets bugs out because software is always imperfect, I can turn it off and on at a moment's notice without a single worry for anyone's safety.

If you don't understand the nuances of a topic and don't care to learn or otherwise be constructive, don't bother replying next time.

Edit 1: This problem is a bit of a two-fer that I mixed up in this post, data privacy and hacking. The former is intentional by design and the latter is enabled by negligence and is more an abstract risk for the average joe.

I won't blame someone on the street for not caring about both given how "out of sight" the former is and unlikely the latter is today, but coming to fight for it? Eh...

Edit 2: That said, we should all be able to not worry together. Alas.

 

I can reply wherever the hell I want in a forum. People crying about cybersecurity on a 4Runner forum is retarded. Almost as bad as grumbling about politics (which is why its banned).

So you said we lack imagination? But yet you are saying cell phones, PCs get updates. Yes I agree. But you think the only way your information gets out is by getting hacked? Big brother is watching doesn't matter if you like it or not.

You can always turn it off? By the time you notice and turn said electronics off its too late.

I'll bow out since I lack "imagination".

 

You missed the point. All modern cars are on networks and are fully capable of being controlled without the owners consent. At best, the danger is ease of theft of your vehicle, or remote bricking. At worst, it allows for new and creative ways to kill or harm any particular person, or group of people. You can bet there are plenty of bad actors that already have or are looking to get this access, for all of the above reasons.

A phone or PC doesn’t have the capability to physically affect you, unless you’ve gone out of your way you set up appliances or garage door openers, furnaces, lights to the internet. My phone does not have access to control anything in my house. Oddly enough, my gas stove has wifi because when I bought it I didn’t realize a stupid stove would come with the ability to be turned on via internet.

 

It was me that made the comment about lack of imagination. My apologies if it was a bit rude, I think we all need to limit our own imaginations to some degree, because there are many things that we aren’t able to completely understand and control. We would go crazy if we tried to understand and control absolutely everything we use in our lives. And things are getting extremely complicated as technology increases.

Why harp on this topic on the internet car forum? Good point, maybe it’s because oddly enough forums might be one of the last places on the internet where you’re more likely to be interacting with an actual person, as opposed to marketing algorithms. So harping on it may increase consumer knowledge, it might lead to pressure on manufacturers, etc.


Keep in mind, we’re not talking about somebody hacking your particular car. The hacking dangers are on the networks that are managed by the car companies.
Those networks are often set up in amateurish ways, and once you’re in, you have the capability of controlling all cars on that network. We can opt out of data collection, but not from being connected to the network.

 

While this is important consideration, the largest distinction is that you can power off and/or leave these behind. For most people, you can't leave the car behind.

Practical example - you attend a rally, something goes bad but that something has nothing to do with you. If you drove your connected car to that rally (or had your phone with you) you are now on The List. Another example, a serious crime happens while your car was two blocks away. Some witness recalls it was large <your color> SUV when perpetrators drove away. LEO pull data on all connected cars in the ares and your came up as the only one matching the color. Now you have SWAT busting your front door and dragging you off in front of your neighbors and family. Another example, you have a stalker that keeps buying data and using to figure out times you are not home to break in and go through your stuff.

 

Compendium of DCM threads. It's surely not exhaustive.

https://www.4runners.com/threads/2024-spyware.37413/
https://www.4runners.com/threads/my-dcm-disconnection-odyssey.25104/
https://www.4runners.com/threads/turning-off-dcm-is-an-ordeal.36445/
https://www.4runners.com/threads/dc...regular-enable-disable-is-the-key-here.40672/
https://www.4runners.com/threads/2020-sr5-dcm-not-working-no-mic-or-sos.32263/
https://www.4runners.com/threads/20220sr5-premium-dcm-location-in-vehicle.26226/
https://www.4runners.com/threads/mayday-fuse-dcm-and-remote-start.12798/
https://www.4runners.com/threads/dcm-service-is-at-t.39604/

 

Fear not, I did indeed have a wall of text there, I did touch on being able to leave such things behind.

I touched on it in an edit as well, but we have two issues here, data collection/privacy/use and the threat of malicious hackers, my first line there definitely is in the camp of the former threat and not the latter.

 

thats BS. Ive never had a rate increase because of my driving habits/speed/etc. people are way too paranoid.