2025 4runner reliability

And that's why diesels cheat, they have no choice. Cummins just got slapped with a hefty fine. No cheating, no diesel.

 

Timely and interesting thread. I do agree, they don’t make vehicles the way they used to. Part of the reason I finally pulled the trigger on the 5th gen (I have always driven used)

I am looking to replace my aging 91 Honda civic. Any good commuter cars that would fit the bill? I don’t mind buying something 10 years old (vs the ancient 30 years I’m driving), if there is is a recommended reliable model that is to the level of the 5th gen. The 4th gen civic (88-91) is bulletproof and I have been driving it since 2006, but it is time for something new - I need AC!

any thoughts? I feel like I owe Honda some Money due to the reliability of the old civic, but I’m tempted by the Toyota Corolla as a replacement if I can get 250,000+ miles like I did out of the civic .

I want this commuter car and the 4Runner to be my last vehicles for at least another 20 years.

 

As stated in this thread already, turbos.........not new. Hybrid........not new. Those with today's tech and emission crap, new.
My turbo Starion went balls out for over 100K. And back then, with ME driving that was saying something. But that was with the EGR and all the emissions taken out of it, etc.
The 1JZ and 2JZ are the most sought after turbo engines in the market for over 30 years, would they pass CA emissions today? Probably not.
Our turbo Lexus NX? it's only 20K so jury still out.

The tried and true old wives tale for the automotive industry, never buy the first edition of a new vehicle. Let them work out the bugs on someone else's dime. Then, i'll start looking into a 6th gen. Hell my 5th gen was 8 years after.

 

Thats helps but its far from the main reason, and Toyotas reliability reputation was built on a lot move vehicles than just the 4Runner.

Its an entire quality culture that spans everything from engineering to production to their supplier chain. They explicitly promote a long term view over short term decision making and empower anyone in the company down to the individual assembly line worker with the power to call a stop production and fix problems on the spot, with an emphasis to digging down to root causes and not just band aiding symptoms.. Among other things.

There is a classic business book written on the topic - The Toyota Way. My company is a software supplier to Toyota and this book is required reading for managers.

 

Not really. They absolutely can meet the regulations using ULSD, urea injection and other advanced technologies. The thing is the bean counters have looked at the expense of designing and implementing all that and the expense of paying the fines if they don't and determined its cheaper to pay the fines.

And I'm not sure we can really say this is about green politics/climate change, as most of the things they are getting slapped with fines over are about particulate emissions and NOx, not mileage /CO2... . This is all about reducing emissions that cause higher rates of Asthma, Emphysema, and Lung Cancer in humans exposed to truck exhaust. "Rolling coal" may look cool to you but being around it is about as healthy as smoking 4 packs a day....

EDIT to add: The thing that I would agree IS debatable is discussing where the point of diminished returns is on this stuff. Is pushing the rate of asthma down to 1 in 100k good enough? or 1 in a million? or 1 in 10million? I know there are folks pushing these regs who wont accept anything above absolute zero but we know that's not achievable (and I agree not worth the effort). But on the other hand having no rules is what got us the Love canal and LA smog in the 60s. Finding the appropriate middle ground is the tricky part.

 

Hard to beat a Corolla or a civic

 

Wall of text alert!

Tough question, note that 2014+ Civic’s got Honda’s CVT in them. That transmission has been treating my friends and family well across several vehicles 2014-2019 with the highest mileage so far I believe is 130-140k miles. I’m convinced that while these are mechanically sound (with more frequent fluid changes), I’m not confident yet the upper limit of their lifespan will be consistently past 250,000 miles however. (would have to check for more anecdata - maybe with 30k fluid change intervals it can - and there’s an issue on older models where the fill plug pops out and spills fluid due to a plugged vent.)

The comparable Toyota’s have a physical first gear before switching to CVT operation. Both don’t seem to die prematurely in general.

A wildcard to know about is Direct Injection-only engines and the carbon buildup on intake valves it can bring, not necessarily a complete bad thing but it’s *a* thing. It can vary widely from engine to engine and it’s duty cycle - it means exposing the intake valves and walnut blasting them or debating preventative measures like a catch can with people on the internet. I think Toyota’s have both port and direct injection to counter the downside of DI-only. The Honda’s you’ll look at are likely DI-only.

(said friends haven’t had issues yet at over 100k miles and DI Honda’s and I believe it’s a potential weak spot for the 2nd gen Fit one has, the garbage HyunKia GDI I4’s seem to die by other means than anything carbon buildup-related generally.)

My idea is a Toyota Corolla hybrid. The eCVT/planetary gearset is simple and absolutely bulletproof compared to even a conventional auto. You’re trading that for a possible battery service/replacement way down the road though. So weigh it against the fuel savings both driving and idling, power delivery, if it has a 1500W inverter and you can use that feature, significant less brake wear, likely no serpentine belt, etc.

But fuel savings might not be as dramatic if you’re on the highway. CA and states that follow them require a 10 year/150k mile warranty on the battery (and some other bits) for hybrids so that’s something to be aware of too if you see one that was purchased there.

Honda’s recent hybrids ditch a transmission almost entirely so for a primarily electric driving experience with some engine > wheel connection at certain speed ranges that’s an option.

Not completely related but you’d want to likely go big sellers too, aftermarket part quality isn’t what it used to be and maybe being a large target market helps both in picking junkyards and aftermarket support.

If it were me, I like the Civic hatch’s space a lot more than the Corolla hatch. But I’d probably lean Corolla hybrid sedan if I were shopping a sedan. Of course, you gotta make sure you like driving what you get if you plan to hit two decades.

 

We where a diehard Honda or bust household for decades.. Lots of Civics, Accords, Acuras and a couple Pilots going back to my Dad's first 77 CVCC. 10 years ago I would have said Civic hands down as you get 90% of Toyota quality but a lot more fun to drive.

Now, Im not so sure. Our last 2 Pilots have had engine problems (bad injectors on the 17, valvetrain or bearing noise that 2 indies and a dealer couldn't resolve on the 08) ... Not nearly as dependable as the 1990s and early 2000s cars that I never once doubted would go 250k with nothing but oil changes.

But at the same time, Toyota is not what it used to be either judging by the iForce v6 issues, recall on the Grand Highlander and 6th gen delays.. I guess its a toss up, drive both and pick the one you like better.

 

Well... not exactly. I'd agree if you're talking about a revolutionary new design, crankshaft bearing is not revolutionary. When we only talk about crank bearings it's been fine tuned for nearly half a century. Especially within the last twenty years advancement in metallurgy is more than the last 100 years combined, and Toyota would be the company that KNOW how to make crank bearings. And when it comes to debris, both my 2023 and 2024 4R have sparkle bits in the oil (I do all my first oil change at 100 miles). My 22' Frontier now at 43k miles have metal bits in the first oil change and it's still running like the first day I got it. I don't buy the "first year" argument when it comes to things that is established. New software, new intake system, new turbo, body panel gaps; arguable. Crank bearings, No.

 

The 2025 4runner will be built in Japan but still have the same engine and transmission as the Tacoma. The build quality will be much better than the Tacoma as far as the body and interior, but will the driveline have the same issues the Tacoma is having? We have a Canadian built 2020 Rav4 and a 2021 Japanese built Rav4, there is a very noticeable difference in build quality.

 

so if i read that right, you are saying a 2009 4runner mechanically is the same as the 2024? (2009 was 1st year of the 5th gen). i am pretty sure over the years, toyota has refined the parts and replaced them with new part #'s over the years. just like they did with the tundra engine issue. the part #'s for the 2 bearings has changed from the originals that was installed in the 22/23 tundra.

it hard to compare a 4runner that has had 15 yrs of refinement to fix issues vs a brand new gen with a totally new engine concept that will probably have growing pains like very oem has right now. i am pretty sure if you go way back in the 5th gen forum you can find some threads complaining about the new 5th gen vs the old 4th gen. like i said its a vicious cycle from gen to gen until toyota refines a gen build wise.

or am i missing a nuance in your reply?


good example i remember was my 4th gen had that stupid star pattern for the hvac controls (see pic, i absolutely hated this star pattern) and resolved it in the 5th gen. another is the window controls from the 4th gen to 5th gen, who thought it was a great idea to put them on top of the door sill, freaking ridiculous during rain storms.

 

2009 was a 4th generation, 2010 was the first year of the 5th generation.

 

semantics on how you read it, i was thinking production not MY when i was typing. my fault actually.


4th gen
Production August 2002 – August 2009
Model years 2003–2009 (US)

5th gen
Production August 2009 – present
Model years 2010–2024 (US)

 

As far as first year bugs and defects, the drivetrains in the 5th gen had very few if any. I do recall the needle bearing in subsequent years, but not many for the 10' - 13' MY.
There have been significant design restrictions imposed on car makers in the last decade, so possibly the focus on the manufacturing QC might have lapsed in light of more resources put into design? Would love to be a fly in the boardroom at Toyota for the last several months.

 

NoDak, you've misunderstood some points. It is common knowledge 1st, 2nd year model of any car have few bumps and hurdles, Toyota is no exception and I fully understand that. There will always be slight improvements here and there, ergo changes from a 2010 to 2024 model years to improve function and aesthetics, better body fitment to reduce vibration noise, etc.

What I'm not okay with and the only argument I'm making is pertaining to the crankshaft bearing. I truly do not believe Toyota's statement of debris caused the premature failure, and in such quantity. There has to be some fundamental flaw in the design. Ask this question, if it is truly just debris why crank bearing for 2024 model onward has a new part number? Initial recall shipped only short blocks, now they're shipping crate engine. Has anyone heard of 2009-2010 4Runners with spun bearings in the 100's under 50k miles? Early Tacoma, Corolla, Camry, Rav4, Tundra, I have never heard of spun bearings in such quantity even with 1st model years. Something is not right with this 3.5 twin turbo engine....

 

No worries, I liked the clarification.

 

I have to say the whole mess is pretty disappointing. I many times defended the turbo hybrid move as I don’t see any fundamental reason it can’t be done to Toyota standards…. But the news lately is just relentlessly bad for them. On top of the engine issues and the various other recalls on models like the Grand Highlander we also have the certification testing scandal and now these reports about Taco transmission problems

https://www.thedrive.com/news/2024-toyota-tacoma-owners-keep-reporting-transmission-failures


WTH Toyota?

 

The comments below that article are quite entertaining if you have some time to kill.

 

Wife and I are considering getting a commuter car (Toyota Corolla)... Any concerns with longterm reliability for the 12gen Corolla, or does this seem to be more of things of the newer generation trucks/suvs?

 

Because we Americans got involved.. made in Japan stands for something. They diluted the sht out of that brand.

 

I guess it depends on your definition of long-term but I don’t think I’ve heard of anyone really complain about a Corolla in quite a while in that department. They’ve been making the 12th gen a while so I wouldn’t sweat too much.

 

after seeing what ryan_gregg posted on his facebook page that his tundra died at roughly 40k miles and doing in cylinder pics of the burrs and scoring on the cylinder walls and seeing the actual failed machining i would have to go with toyota's assessment on debris.

please note that ryan_gregg is a pretty well know and respected member before toyota forced the forums give him an ultimatum on either deleting his account or being banned (he posted copyrighted material to the forums that toyota didnt like, since it was pulled supposedly from techstream and didnt adhere to the techstream rules)

also someone posted a video and referenced his facebook posts.

https://youtu.be/w0XKti1swjg?si=JudLwQS4EraJJSss

 

It's not "green politics", it's the nature of federal regulations.

Imagine you're the EPA trying to set regulations to clean up some of the worst air pollution in the country - do you:
1. create rules that only apply to say, Los Angeles and New York City, but not the rest of the country - how would you even enforce that?
2. create rules that apply to the entire country, but mainly only benefit certain locations - and this is how it's done.

California has its own rules, which people complain about because they think they're being punished for the LA Basin air quality issues, when, climate science shows us how farming in the central creates as much smog as the LA area.

Anyhow, basically federal rules suck, because they get applied to everyone, even those that probably don't need them.

Now, imagine, post Supreme Court reversal of the Chevron decision, judges are now the decision makers, and they have their local bias, so, the EPA is essentially shut down. Know what happens? California puts up border stations on every road into the state. You fail emissions, you can't enter the state. Suddenly, you've got retaliatory rules in every other state. What about interstate commerce rules? California judges have decided, eff you, Chevron reversal works both ways. The Supreme Court tries to rule, but, states have now decided to ignore it. So, suddenly, all that Chinese made crap that comes into LA ports is stuck in California, the Panama Canal is currently almost blocked (definitely read about the current problems there), and everything gets 100x more expensive. And I know, you think, ooooh, yeah, we'll bring manufacturing back to the US, and sure, but you won't be owning a car, house, or going to the doctor on those wages. So, good luck with that.

Now that's politics in action. Welcome to the future.

 

It is green politics and you are presenting false choices. They ought to:

3. create minimum necessary rule to satisfy 'common use' scenario and bias toward doing nothing in cost vs. benefit analysis.

Effectively banning diesels US-wide with impossible emission standards is insane overreaction to LA or NY smog issues. LA and NY could always increase registration costs for these if they don't want these around their area.

 

Who cares? Many people desire diesel for superficial reasons. If you need it, there commercial options.
Don’t need a Jetta tdi lol. Don’t need to satisfy every permutation of vehicle types.. it’s not a basic right..

 

I am not trying to defend tAyota as we southern folks say it, but their hands are tied down to this crazy emissions regs that we want to have on our newer vehicles. So we sacrifice reliability and experience for this new designs that are bound to have problems. We can't have it both ways....something has to give.

 

Can you give examples of the build quality differences ?

 

The doors are tighter when closing them, the panels fit better, the fit and finish inside are better, carpeting, dash pieces, console are all better quality. The Canadian built is a great car, it just isn't as nice as the Japanese built.

 

Wow, I see. Video shows large amounts of burr that's hanging off edges, couple chunks breaking off will do it. It'll be a few years before Toyota fine tunes manufacturing process for this engine. Can't believe over half-century of engine making, de-burring cut channels is not part of the established procedure.

 

Video is definitely enlightening. Hard to argue with the debris causation. We can blame epa restrictions, which I agree with for the most part. But, all of these Toyota truck/suv forums are loaded w horrible mileage/low power threads. So between this and the epa restrictions, supply chain bs, material/production costs skyrocketing w a failing currency, it appears Toyota made mistakes with these new engines. Not defending or attacking just an observation. Hopefully managements actions in the next few months/years will be honorable and proper.