Sold 5th Gen for new Land Cruiser 250

Given the displacement and piston count, it honestly seems like what they achieved is still impressive from an engineering perspective… which is move a heavy truck like it was being powered by a much larger V6. It definitely does not tow or pull or accelerate like its putting up the numbers in HP and torque its rated at though or else it would basically be able to tow what the GX550 does or 300 series LC could.

Also, think of the appropriate analogy like asking somebody who is 165 pounds and an absolute stout and fit person to bench press 225 lbs and squat 350 lbs and this person is taking all kinds of performance enhancing, though legal substances and gets 8-10 hours of sleep per night, eats super well and has everything dialed into tolerance to maximize their output and performance. That ask is more taxing and stressful on this person than a natural 225 pound weight class person who is reasonably fit but not following a regimen that is dialed into perfection with very little tolerance to be outside of this before performance drops off and they cannot deliver. Yes, developments in metallurgy and technology have enabled a 2.4 liter 4 cylinder to move around a heavy truck with the assistance of electric boost and forced induction. But it has also introduced some comparatively high compression, high cylinder wall pressures, heat and extra parts and bits to do so. Did Toyota account for this? I’m sure it did by using an oversized oil and engine cooling system. But there are more things down chain to potentially go wrong and more cost because of the engineering wizardry. The margin for error and tolerance for things going wrong is much smaller. The 4.0 liter ancient V6 is actually a giant engine for a 6 cylinder and utilizes low compression. It’s never breaking a sweat when you turn it on virtually in any scenario you put it through… which is why with oil changes and routine maintenance they regularly hit 300k+ miles. It is VERY understressed albeit slow.

 

Not quite following this argument, but I'm going to throw in my two cents that from decades of reading car magazines, one thing that I've gathered is that they typically test and drive these cars like a-holes. They're not driving for economy, they're doing their 0 to 60 and other tests on them (often before they're broken in) and that factors into the fuel mileage. I don't put a lot of stock in them reporting poor mileage, I'm more concerned with what average drivers get in the real world.

My experience with the 4.0 is that it does feel relatively quick foot to the floor 0-60, or foot to the floor at 60 to pass. Most people don't drive like that though. Where it feels very weak is cruise control at 60 and it needs to downshift a gear or two to maintain speed on any type of grade or headwind. If it had more low to mid-range that would not be an issue. So I understand why a vehicle that may be technically slower to 60 may feel more powerful depending on the torque curve. My old '88 trans Am with the TPI 350 barely broke 15 seconds in the quarter, but it felt like a beast because it made 345 foot pounds barely off idle.

Not a direct comparison with a 5th gen 4Runner, but every single test I've seen of the new Tacoma has the reviewer saying the drivetrain feels much better than the previous generation.

 

I agree with everything you've said here.

It's already clear that opinions about the new drivetrain are going to vary quite a bit.

Hopefully the real world fuel economy numbers will be better than the magazines are reporting. I just checked Fuelly, and there's nothing yet for the new Landcruiser. Hopefully in a few months we'll have some more data.

 

Agreed on the power issue. 2023 TRD ORP... actually quite disappointed with the driving EXPERIENCE at fwy speeds- engine is NOT anywhere near a torque peak at 70 MPH and 5 speed transmission always seems to be a gear or two away from optimal. Yes, foot down from a stop it hustles and WILL take out the trash/bring home the bacon/feel like a sub 8 sec vehicle. But for general driving, it feels exceptionally gutless to me. downshifts 1-2 gears on even a moderate hill and cruise control finds it hunting between gears frequently enough that I have to disconnect it and drive it myself. The engine seems to be tuned for HP and would be fine for a sports car; sounds great and power really comes on past 4500 RPM. I NEVER EVER drive it 4500 to redline, however. Coming from a Chevy 2500 Duramax with mods. Great power and torque; something like 850 torque with electronic mods. Fucking thing kept eating injectors and pumps to the tune of $4500 each time just parts with 40 hours of my labor. Never again.

Toyota Surf diesel 1991 JDM 4Runner with EFI turbodiesel is a hoot. Minimal turbo lag and the first couple seconds of push make it seem quick as hell. But, no, not really. Don't even think of towing anything with it. But using the seat dyno, I would give the win to the Surf every time over the Gen 5 runner but Im sure the 'runner is beating it badly.

Far cry from my Tesla with >500 WHP and 0-60 sub 3.4 secs. Instant torque is amazing. I bought the truck for reliability first, then reliability, and lastly for reliability. Reliability and Tesla can't be mentioned in the same library, never mind the same sentence in a book. Tesla has been in the shop many times and stranded me a couple times. You ever been on Hwy 5 200 miles north of LA and your Tesla won't charge? You're looking at a calendar to make towing arrangements and a flight home while they fuss over the vehicle.

 

Why does everyone keep comparing a midsize to a 3/4 ton truck and act like the vehicle is the problem?

I see this all over this website and TacomaWorld, even talking about how towing sucks compared to the 2500. Like, what do y'all expect?

 

I wasn't expecting to ever see a Land Cruiser around here, but the dealer called yesterday to ask if I wanted to trade in my '23 ORP for a new LC. Nope, I'm good.

 

Went by my dealer today and they had a FE for sale with a $5000 market adjustment.

 

Same, I got quoted a decent trade-in offer, but they only had the LC First Edition, and for that money I might as well buy the GX550 OverTrail. Which is what I told the guy. He laughed and agreed.

 

Now reading ownership feedback from dissent offroad that the lc250 in 4L and first gear still requires riding the brake going down inclined.. poor engine braking.

that blows

 

Dealers calling around trying to get good trade-in 5th Generation 4Runner owners to "upgrade" to an LC250 is no surprise. They are pretending it's a hot seller but there are many of them available. Some have even taken to hiding inventory physically and tucked away from front lot sight but the reality is (1) rates are high to finance (2) people are disappointed with what they're getting given the price point and (3) the usual first generation new model avoiders are gonna sit it out regardless of the first two. So people who want the LC250 can definitely call around and get an honest dealer to work with them. I have heard of and know of several transactions closing below MSRP even. The 17 gallon gas tank is also quite a tough pill to swallow for LC250 owners. Particularly those who aren't getting much better mileage than stock 4Runner owners. Yikes, 23 gallon tank vs 17 gallons is a big difference in range.

 

There are two dealers near me with new LCs on the lot. That's something I never expected to see.

 

The new “Land Cruiser” is not a real Land Cruiser not saying that to insult anyone but it means it doesn’t have the Land Cruiser price but also doesn’t have the Land Cruiser build quality. The new prado j250 isn’t built to last at least 25 years as the 200 series and all the predecessors of the real land cruisers were. Toyota isn’t going to give you a truck with 100k worth of quality parts for 50k out of the goodness of their hearts

think about they already cheaped out by putting in the 2.4 4cylinder instead of the 3.4 v6 the gx550 gets

the real Land Cruiser 80 series 100 series and 200 series were pretty much the same as their Lexus counterparts

 

What makes you believe that a turbo V6 is a better engine for a Land Cruiser than the I4 hybrid? The hybrid makes peak torque at a lower rpm...like the diesels in model 70's sold elsewhere. The hybrid gives a significantly higher off-road cruising range versus the V6 turbo that has an exceptionally lousy range (plan to see a low fuel light at 250 miles in the city on pavement and less offroad, don't plan to go 1000 km like a model 70 diesel). I would be surprised if the I4 turbo + electric motor + battery doesn't cost Toyota more than a regular turbo V6 (do you have actual knowledge of the costs?). The V6 reduces 0-60 time by two seconds which seems irrelevant to the Land Cruiser brand. Electric motors are ideal for instant, controllable off-idle torque.

I think you've helped me figure out why I'm not drawn to the GX550. It's a luxury street vehicle with an off-road image. It's not an honest vehicle like a 4Runner or Tacoma or the Land Cruisers sold elsewhere...you pay a lot of money for stuff like 22 inch wheels and nice sounfvsystems and big touchscreens and a Lexus badge that do nothing for the fundamental capability of the vehicle. I think of Land Cruisers and 4Runners and Tacomas as vehicles made for people that want to actually use the capability of the vehicle off the pavement.

 

Count me among the group of folks who were eagerly awaiting the LC and didn’t give the GX550 much, if any consideration at all despite my reserved First Edition LC costing just as much and having less brand cachet. I much preferred the idea of a turbo 4, electric boosted hybrid and all the corresponding complexity and extra bits if it meant nearly identical power and torque figures with MUCH better EPA rated gas mileage. On paper as an academic exercise, the LC setup makes a lot of sense, since 100% of the electric motor’s torque is available at all times irrespective of engine speed. It should fill torque holes while boost builds in the turbo engine, and given conventional metrics such as power and torque per pound, result in great towing and acceleration. That is not in fact the case at all. Despite very similar power and torque ratings, the GX accelerates much more quickly and tows much more than a Landcruiser. It may be due to engine mapping and wizardry out of consideration for the driveline components and that delivering max (COMBINED OUTPUT) torque in concert would be too stressful on the transmission, torque converter, etc, vs sequentially metering and throttling. Either way, what you find is that a Landcruiser in no way performs like a GX550. Driving the Land Cruiser I was wondering why it felt like it has lag despite the small turbo setup and electric assist. I much prefer the styling simplicity of a Toyota, shorter overhangs, the under the radar element of a Toyota over a Lexus, etc but the paper doesn’t translate to real life when driving both. The iForce MAX engines in Tundra, Sequoia and now Landcruiser also never seem to actually get the EPA rated mileage too. So a Land Cruiser having a 17.9 gallon tank is a real problem. The GX has a larger tank by the way at 21 gallons since it doesn’t have a battery pack.

 

Nah forget both 250 and GX.

ineos grenadier is where it’s at. Contemplating getting rid of the 4R for that..
sooo good

 

They are cool looking. I mean most people who love rugged SUVs find the classic Land Rover Defender a handsome car… only issue is that you have to drive a limited distribution frankenmodel car around. I do really love the way they look and with you being in CO, there is a dealer in CO Springs so you can buy one and at least get it serviced locally when things need attention.

 

Yeah CO’s ineos dealer is 50 miles away from me… it may not fit in my garage though… ahhhhh

Only $30k more than my ORP for a truly unique vehicle, triple locked, solid front axle, over built like crazy

 

I must be old now and too old school. But got my itch out and sat on one of these new LC and it wasn't for me. It was kind of small...and just didn't feel right. I prefer the v8 models de 2020 up to 2021 edition were the ones I should have gone for but were untouchable on price. Anyway, taste for everyone here with all of these choices.

 

here’s the issue I have with the prado j250, have you ever seen the tie rods on an 80 series? It’s literally like 3 times thicker than the ones on the 4Runner it’s stout as hell hence why they’re so robust. The tie rods on the j250 are like that of the Tacoma and 4Runner pretty flimsy and will snap like a toothpick if you try to run 35s and actually wheel it. Is the prado j250 better than the 6th gen? Probably but that’s not saying much it sure as heck isn’t as good as a real Land Cruiser and it’s just a sign of Toyota pandering to unsuspecting fools and is on par with the mustang Mach e and the anaheim angels changing their name to the Los Angeles angels of Anaheim

 

I mean nobody should have been going into buying an LC250 thinking they were getting THAT Land Cruiser. It’s not the wildly overbuilt 100, 200, 300 series lineage which were low volume sellers because of the sheer amount of material and heartiness they entailed drove price up in a way the market didn’t like. It’s not appreciated by enough people to move sufficient units to make it worth Toyota’s while in the USA, where people would rather have that money be spent on things they can touch and feel, vs super robustly built parts. Do you think the average person wants to pay extra for more and thicker concrete in a new home build foundation, or re-allocate that money to things like kitchen appliances and other more visible features. Most people in the U.S.A. Would rather buy a Mercedes, BMW, Audi or Cadillac SUV for the price of what a real overbuilt U.N. Issue Land Cruiser costs. It’s a shame too because they were such a niche car that they had amazing loyalty among those purchasers who appreciated it and were in the know with what they were buying and why they were buying it.

 

The price of the previous landcruiser was silly. Back when we bought our 4Runner the dealer had a leftover Landcruiser that we debated buying thinking we could keep the thing for 20 years but at twice the price why not drive a 4Runner for 10 years then start off with a fresh one rather than ending up with 20 year old worn out seats and everything else. The new LC is at least priced a little more reasonable. If only it wasn’t a hybrid.

 

It’s not a LC though. Lipstick on a pig

the previous LC was the flagship model. The current 250 is a poor man model

 

I think Toyota is doing great, all things considered.

 

Very cool looking but I wonder how reliable that BMW engine is.

 

B58 engine from BMW is a good engine.

 

Sand engine used in the Supra

 

I have both, a ‘21 LC HE and a ‘23 4R TRD Pro. Yes the LC cost nearly twice as much, but there’s absolutely no comparison in terms of build quality, overall feel and performance.

I feel like I got my money’s worth with the 200 series LC. I would be proud to pass it on to my kids one day, even 20 years from now. On the other hand, the LC250 seems like a marketing gimmick.

 

250’s door sounds as hollow as my 2013 forester

 

I know guys who have Tacos with 35's, and actually wheel them. The tie rods aren't really an issue. The steering rack seems to be an issue for some, though.

 

I see we're back to the "real Landcruiser" arguments.