Devastated that truck is totaled.

No idea of the actual numbers, but I believe Black Bear Pass gets at least a couple fatalities per year, and I don't believe Imogene Pass is far behind it. Colorado's jeep trails can be unforgiving.

 

Oh wow, I was just playing around at La Grange OHV park just a few weeks ago! I did not attempt any water crossing because of not visiting this park since the 1980s when I was a dirt bike rider. La Grange has changed a lot since I was there last. Sorry about your 4Runner. Good thing you had a buddy there to get you out.

 

No where near that number die every year on BBP.

 

Thought BBP has been closed for awhile.

 

Not sure what you mean? Like all the passes, it closes every winter, so if that's what you're talking about, then yes. Closed permanently?...not that I've heard. It was open last year when I was living there.

 

Probably what you are referring to. This has been posted on here before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R5cLghSWGQ

 

https://www.sanmiguelcountyco.gov/406/Road-Conditions

 

E-brake didn't hold, if I remember right.

 

From your link: "UPDATE: County Road K69, Bridal Veil, Via Ferrata and surrounding hiking trails will be closed Monday, July 8th. This is to ensure that the San Miguel County Road and Bridge crew can safely clear off the switchbacks on Black Bear Pass." It's closed to clear the switchbacks, temporarily, not a permanent closure.

There is still snow this early in the year.

 

They just got Ophir opened up this week, its going to be a bit more before Black Bear opens. They are currently working on getting the switchback cleared to open it.
Source:

 

I dont want to hijack this thread (even though I kinda did already) so I replied there

https://www.4runners.com/threads/wh...-gen-4runner-today.2261/page-1100#post-615582

 

Absolutely, this is why I use clear and concise language with my clients. Never leave anything open to misinterpretation if you can help it.

 

Yes, this is what I saw before and I know it was a Colorado trail. Just watching the dashcam freaks me out. I drove the Road to Hana in Maui once and I'm not sure how I pulled it together on some of those roads (we never made it until the end before pulling back)

I do realize these are sought after offroad vehicles and that's what I like about them. I'm fine with a lower tier offroad trail... just enough that my Honda couldn't handle.

 

I think it’s wise to recognize there are real risks with off-roading, both financial and safety. But those risks are completely controlled by the driver. Good judgement weighing risks, when to take them, and when not to, is what keeps you safe. You can do progressively riskier things as you learn from others and gain experience in situations where consequences are less severe. You can also learn to dial back the risk factor where consequences might be more severe.

About the worst thing is to not be able to recognize where dangers exist. It’s not a requirement to be stupid to do stupid things. You only need to lack knowledge. This is where I think watching videos of people flipping, getting stuck, or otherwise wrecking is super helpful. It can open your eyes to what can happen and under what circumstances it can happen, so that you can apply it to situations you might find yourself in at some point. For example, mountain trails with huge drops. The guy that lost control of his jeep on black bear probably didn’t properlyrecognize the danger of not securing the vehicle once he got out of it. Personally, when I saw that video and heard how it happened, burned it into my head that simply parking a vehicle can have life and death consequences in situations involving any height. This is something that intelligent flat-landers can forget, so it made me learn how to adjust my parking brake in a way that will absolutely, positively, hold my vehicle well on an a significant incline. And burned it into my head that simply exiting your vehicle can have severe consequences if you don’t respect the reality that “height equals stored energy.”

There is absolutely nothing wrong with backing out when it gets too sketchy. It’s no fun to risk something you’re not willing to lose. It’s only fun when you feel you are in reasonable control of the risks. Just make sure to back out while you can, because there are plenty of times where you’ll end up committed if you don’t back out at the right time.

I kinda hate heights. What I would do in flat land is nothing like what I’d be willing to do in situations where I could roll downhill. Part of weighing a risky situation is to consider the severity of the consequences for a misstep.

 

This is me 100%. I have been guilty multiple times in my life of putting myself in danger and not recognizing it until after the fact (examples of where my ignorance almost cost me: walking through tall brush in an area known (not to me) for rattlesnakes, boogie boarding near rip currents (I had to get saved from a lifeguard and I didn't know how to swim).

Because of this, I now know that I am capable of putting myself in danger and not even knowing. I suspect having a good mentor/guide is probably what I'm lacking the most. I have had great experiences in my life with guides (swimming (aka floating since I can't swim) with sea turtles in Maui, for example).

 

Going boogie boarding without the ability to swim is one of those situations that would seem to scream, "potential danger". I don't know how to rock climb, so fortunately, nobody has ever needed to rescue me off the face of half dome. If your inability to swim is due to a physical disability, I would think you'd be accustomed to having safeguards in place? Not trying to be unkind, but you sort of opened pandora's box with your admissions.

 

I think the poster did great taking ownership and acknowledgment of the fact they put themselves in DANGER.

 

When I first got into off-roading after building my FJ40, I found wheeling with the local TLCA club events got you a great bunch of friends but also people that will help coach/educate you safely. In the event something goes wrong, you have a ton of people around to support and typically get you back up and running. Usually people group up with like style rigs, and there is a group for beginners who want to just explore the bunny trails. Highly recommend looking into something like that. I would be hesitant wheeling with a bunch of random people off a FB group at some random spot.

Also found that if you're out in Utah for example, hire a local trail guide to show you the ropes and guide you on trails you can run vs should avoid. Cost a bit more money, but we have found this helps maximize trails safely run while on vacation.

Saying that, I'm not taking the wifes 4runner out on any serious trails. Not worth damaging a brand new vehicle and we have my 1st gen + dirt/trial bikes for anything more serious.

 

Yep, so do I. I don't think anything in my post implied otherwise.

 

I was in Utah last month and started a trail that I had researched before attempting. It turned out it was in much worse condition then I was expecting and decided to abort and turn around. As it was getting worse the little voice in my head said "you still need to drive 1500 miles to get home, you sure this is a good idea?" and I decided discretion was the better part of valour.

 

I got personally lucky to find some great people in my region through this forum and TW. We all seem to be of similar minds in terms of risk tolerance and everyone has been super helpful of newbies like me. I like the idea hiring a guide too if wheeling in far off places.

Sometimes good judgement only comes from bad judgement. It’s usually not the preferred way to learn, but when you get that type of lesson, it usually sticks.

Seriously though, it’s very easy to have an adventerous spirit and get yourself into trouble from simply not knowing. As long as somebody doesnt try to blame someone else, it’s life knowldege, we count our lucky stars, and move on in life.

 

I believe that most everyone who has an adventurous spirit, like you said, has gotten in over their head at one time or another, and I totally agree it is a powerful learning tool. The gentleman I quoted never mentioned how old he was at the time of the boogie boarding rescue. It's quite possible he was a young child, and children are notorious for being unaware of the consequences of their actions. His comment did intrigue me, however, because if he was an adult when it occurred, I would be interested to hear his thought process prior to the decision, since that is specifically how we all learn. Accidents can happen to anyone, but an adventurous spirit is very different than someone who knows they can't swim walking out into the ocean to go swimming.

 

You had a smiley emoji on your first question suggesting your curiosity was a way to jokingly raz a guy for a blunder. I think that razzing someone can help in teaching people not to repeat a bone headed mistake, especially for the types that just don’t admit to mistake or look to place blame elsewhere. Even fighter pilots usually get their call signs from embarrassing blunders.

But, to your point that an adventurous spirit is not the same as “knowingly walking out into the ocean to swim”. Not sure I agree, because that’s not how these mistakes usually work. Someone that’s walking out into the ocean is walking. Maybe they heard of rip tides, but they’re not swimming, they’re walking…so it’s ok. They get used to it and they feel safe and in control. Maybe the next time a friend has a boogie board. You’ve been in the water for a while, at a a “safe” waist height. Buddy offers you the board. Sure, just for a second…I’m only in waist high water….. you get on the board, having fun just floating for 20 seconds …you lose track of your position against the shore (because you never thought to keep track of your position)…then just like that…you’re gone.

That’s how mistakes with high risk activities tend to happen. You never plan on it, it doesn’t happen all at once, you’re often fairly confident in the moments before you’re screwed, and you’re usually *actually* screwed well in advance of a your realization of being screwed.

The knowledge bit comes in where somebody explicitly teaches some of the ways people actually end up putting themselves in that situation.

 

This one made me chuckle. My parents took a rented RV across the full length of this road (despite the rental contract prohibiting it!) when I was a teenager and we didn't have any problems. The rental agency wouldn't have been happy had they found out.

 

Back to the insurance thing...

I wonder how an insurance rep - that would deny an "off-roading" claim - would respond if asked "Why does your company charge more for the 4WD version of the same truck, if it does not cover damage while off road?" It would seem logical - that old "prudent man rule" - that we are paying a premium for 4WD insurance because we are more likely to file a claim for damage while driving... off road.

 

A 4WD costs more to repair. There are more opportunities for parts to be damaged that are more costly so the risk (amount to pay out) is higher. On your way to work, to the grocery store, to church, etc., you have an opportunity to cost the insurance company more money in repairs. In fact, the number of occurrences of on road accidents is much higher than off road accidents, and the impacts are typically greater on road than off road. A 5 mph crunch off road causes far less damage than a 45 mph crunch in an intersection. So, 100x more often (I'm making that number up) is there an opportunity for a loss on road, and the amount of damage on road will be significantly higher. So, a 4WD costs more to insure than its 2WD counterpart.

An insurance rep wouldn't deny an "off-roading" claim.

 

Higher risk profile. They're typically taller and heavier than most others so they cause more damage when you are at fault and they are more likely to be in an accident because of increased braking distances and reduced maneuverability.

 

Repeating a lie doesn't make it true. Just because you personally or your company didn't deny off road claims doesn't mean nobody will.

Stating absolutes like this while acting as an authority on the subject will push people into bad decisions. It does happen and people need to get it in writing from their insurance to make sure they're covered.