6th Gen Fail - Hybrid for Overlanding

Does Tesla charge for the 62mph in the left lane feature?

 

I am the "offset" for the slow Tesla in the left lane. I blow past them on the right burning extra fuel to "offset" the fuel they are saving and making themselves "feel better".

 

I have to laugh at this feel better comments towards EV owners. It seems like the ICE owners also “feel better” about their vehicles.

 

Why not feel better if you drive an ICE vehicle like a Dodge Viper

 

Free 3 month Subscription to engage your lockers, part of Jeep Cares

 

I agree, just as I agree when you step on that accelerator pedal of an EV and feel that torque it makes you feel better. And for some, knowing that you are at least trying to change what appears to be the path of the planet, trying to do better, makes them feel better.

it just cracked me up with the “feel better” comments, when staying ICE makes some “feel better”

 

see my reply above.

 

Here’s my problem with EV’s, they’re great for around town, but terrible for long hauls on the highway. For example, I got a pretty new Model S from a rental agency in Dallas to drive to San Antonio, 284 miles, to pick up my plane at the service center. It took me longer to get to San Antonio than it would have with an ICE vehicle. Running an EV at highway speeds, and let’s be realistic, 75-80mph in most states is the usual flow of traffic, is not conducive for long range travel on a battery powered vehicle. I had to run 85-90mph in Texas to stay with the flow of traffic and I had to stop half way to charge the car. Don’t get me wrong, the Model S is nice AF, but it is a massive waste of time to sit in a parking lot for half an hour to get charged enough to finish a less than 300 mile drive. Then I had to find a charging station near the airport to charge it up to the required charge for drop off. That took an hour!

Back to the hybrid crap…

I think it’s a great concept for a grocery getter, but I also think there’s going to be, as I stated in a different thread, a lot of folks buy these 6th gen’s and start modding and then they aren’t happy. Bigger tires and added weight from bumpers and gear will make the hybrid feature almost non existent thus greatly diminishing fuel economy, thus forcing the turbos to work harder which in turn further hurts the fuel economy. It happened on my hybrid F150 once I added 35’s to it. Was seeing 26 mpg on the highway when stock and it dropped to 12 mpg after the tires and lift went on. The hybrid motor only kicked in while braking after that and the turbos were under constant boost. I can’t wait for the “my gas mileage sucks” complaints.

 

Agreed, Toyota is on to something with their Prime vehicles. Plug in Hybrid, the Rav4 Prime gets between 40 and 50 miles per charge. Which can be done at home on a normal outlet, takes a little while. And then 40 mpg or so on gas.

 

100% agreed, but, you and I both know it’s gonna happen on here, the FB groups, etc. Given the “overland” hype in recent years more and more people without common sense are getting into it.

 

Just to clarify, I’m addressing the concept of EV or Hybrids that are designed to be suitable for “overlandy” duty. What I mean by that is a vehicle that can be counted on to get you through hard terrain and conditions (much like the current 4runner).

My point is that basic and reliable does not require any “intelligent systems”. No need to have fancy computers programs to write programs to write code for mission critical function. It’s not necessary in order to unlock cars, turn on wipers, adjust vents, cabin heat, fan speed, operate e-brakes, make fart noises etc.

Traction control, a-trac…that’s fine run that through a processor like it currently does now.

Toyota is not necessarily the one I’m speaking of, but they are in danger of following the “EVs are complicated” crowd. The likes of Tesla and Rivian are driving this narrative. And my cynical opinion is that “the fancy magical sophisticated systems” also allow them to maintain an umbilical on the car for additional revenue streams.

Software interfaces tend to put too many eggs in one basket. It’s not unheard of bugs causing the entire vehicle to become inoperative.

Let’s do one better and use purely mechanical devices where appropriate for off-road vehicles. For example, Why risk an electric e-brake failure on a vehicle that may be partially submerged in the normal course of action, when a mechanical will do.

The point is that cars need to be designed to a purpose. If the customer wants a car that makes them feel like they’re driving an iphone, build that.

But if they want a robust vehicle meant to be independently operated (away from a cell connection to the manufacturer), in harsh environments, then design and build that.

EV or Hybrid propulsion is not a barrier to making a basic uncomplicated vehicle. It wasn’t 100 years ago, and it’s not now. And if you need it to meet modern safety regulations, it doesn’t need to be any more complicated than the current 4runner is. And it certainly doesn’t need to be operated by a few central LCD screen user interfaces.

 

Good point. I’m totally fine with the overland mall crawler and teenage girl jeep crowd. They wouldn’t want them if they weren’t capable. Nobody would want a ferrari either, if it wasn’t a fast car. Let’s call them “owners that aspire”. Without them, there really would not be a sufficient market to develop cars that are capable of more than basic transportation.

That’s why I think forums like this are good. They can call bullshit whenever a manufacturer pretends to be selling a capable vehicle, but in fact is selling something that is pure show. I do think manufacturers keep a pulse on their customer base by looking at the buzz online.

 

I’m truly interested to see how many long time Toyota loyalists in the offroad community move on to another platform. I know I am if my 5th gen ever goes tits up. Hell, I’m already looking for a late 90’s XJ to LS swap and throw 1 tons under.

 

Your last point is a bit of an eye opener. That would be a huge surprise to realize bigger tires and added weight would essentially take the electric motor out of the mix. It makes perfect sense when you think about it, but not something that most would anticipate.

It might be possible that some sort of “hybrid-tune” or ecu re-flash could make the electric drive kick in like it used to.But then that brings in the possibility of stressing out the battery pack.

 

A lot of my friends are going old school. 3rd gen 4R’s, XJ’s, single cab tacos, etc. Just simply to stay away from all the tech BS.

 

That would be similar to the system used by truly off-road vehicles like a Komatsu 980E. But with batteries.

 

This is all cyclical to an extent. Nissan could decide to push into the market. Heck even Korean manufacturers may want to make a serious attempt.

Maybe not though. I don’t think car manufacturers are doing much to attract younger buyers. Manufacturers of all kinds seem to be perfecting “investment diversification” type schemes. It’s all about getting profits from other streams…like their own customers after the sale (selling financing, user data, subscriptions, etc). The core product is more and more designed to meet their needs, not the customer’s. Various companies themselves say they are not car manufacturers…now they are calling themselves “mobility providers”. There’s nothing better for profitability than selling a car a customer can’t ever truly own.

Kids that are starting out feel rent is too damn high, new cars require mortgages, and buying a house isn’t even a thing to dream about. Independent travel will slowly turn into a silly concept for irresponsible old rich people. That’s helped by Tesla pushing the narrative that people are idiots that should not be trusted driving their own cars.

There’s gonna be a slow-down in the new car market simply due to l
pricing. It will keep slowing down if there’s no new buyers entering the market because they don’t make options cheap enough for them, or worse if that pushes new buyers to a different “mobility” philosophy. So maybe new car models will offer less and less diversity, and all we’ll get is different body cladding and bold new graphics.

Eh, I’m sounding like the old man yelling at clouds…. But I actually believe it’s a good thing to teach the next generation that it’s a good thing to be able to move around this country (or any country), at-will and with independence. It’s fine to be concerned about doing that in a socially responsible manner, but that concern shouldn’t cause kids to give up their responsibility to develop independence in all the forms necessary for their personal well-being. This way of thinking seems irrelevant to the new business models though.

need to watch my step getting off this soap box lol.

 

Well said. Kind of sad too. The good old days are over and I would really hate to be a kid now age 20-30 - they are basically effed into a life of dollar slavery and renters for life. The saddest part is it is all being done on purpose...

 

What’s crazy to me is that China might be the one that ends up serving the “off-road” market. They have an established middle class, and their government might easily start encouraging their citizens to explore their own vast country (might be the case already). Their auto industry will accommodate that with continuing development. If they manage to start exporting a lot of them, it could be the thing that sets off other manufacturers to respond with competing products.

 

Maybe after the silk road is built out through Eurasia, that will be China's new market base and I can see all their exports headed that way. They are super smart and can build anything but they may not want our worthless dollar soon. They have dumped a shit-load of US debt recently...

 

sorry I was typing fast before an appointment. I have a BSME. Just said it funny.

 

It “feels” like the good times are over now, and I do worry about how I’m going to be able to afford college for my own kids et.c… but we have to put it in respective that every generation says something like that and there have been times in the past when it felt as or even more hopeless before some radical change. Great Depression is a prime example.


Having said that I do agree that subscription everything is garbage… hoping to retire before my own business goes 100% that way…

 

I agree with you, but we passed that mark 20 years ago. The days of a simple vehicle, with no computers on mission critical systems, is LONG gone IMO. .gov regulation will never allow such a vehicle to be sold in this country, so if you want that type of vehicle you're going to have to build it. (and live in a state that will allow such a vehicle)

 

Also consider that mechanical doesnt always mean more reliable.

Would you rather have a distributor, condenser and breaker points or electronic coil on plug?
Would you rather have a carburetor or EFI?

I think some of the younger guys forget what it was like to live with a car that was a rats nest of vacuum hoses as a daily driver. I love working on older cars but I would not want to go back to the days of setting the choke and cranking forever to coax it to start in winter.



Edit: Also consider the manual knobs for climate control and radio. I love manual knobs also. I hate touch screens. But the fact is they are just turning a potentiometer that feeds a signal to the computer... the days when those manual climate knobs works a mechanical climate system passed 30 years ago - and when it did it was a complicated mess that was a major PIA to fix. Back in the 80s the temp knob was probably connected to a bimetallic coil (like in an old round Honeywell house thermostat) and when the temp dropped it triggered a solenoid that sent power to a valve that opened a line to a vacuum actuator that opened and closed a flapper valve in the heater core to mix outdoor air. a couple electric servo actuators, thermocouple temp sensor and a computer is a lot more reliable and easier to fix as there is far less to break.

 

Ive traveled to China on business multiple times. They absolutely have a middle class in the big cities (Shanghai, Beijing, etc) among the professional class that work for western companies and big Chinese conglomerates like Alibaba. its a much small % of the total population than here but it exists.

 

And again I would have to give you a reality check that modern day china is not Soviet style communism (which in turn was not pure Marxism either). Its communist one-party politics with a hybrid semi-capitalist economy.

But your right we don't do politics here, I'm just stating the facts as I have seen them in person. Its an interesting place to visit if you ever get the chance.

 

Western China is absolutely beautiful, have been a few times in the Gulfstream.

 

I agree about the impossibility of going back to old technology. Modern vehicles are essentially maintenance-free compared to something from 40 or 50 years ago.

Maybe I’m not making my point all that well. There’s technology and then there’s implementation. Poor implementation in terms of user interface is just one example. Making all (or most) functions accessible only through LCD screens can cause a vehicle to become useless if that screen fails. The risk of a bad patch to the OS can make the vehicle useless. Forcing operators to use interfaces, best suited for an office environment does not respect the responsibilities of a driver operating a dangerous machine. A lot of these design decisions on cars like Teslas or Rivian seem to ignore these realities.

None of this is a big deal if you trade cars every few years and if you live near service locations. But it does mean that cars are being made with unnecessary dependencies. It’s possible to design a modern off-road 4 x 4, if there’s a desire to do so.

it’s also worth noting that having everything on a LCD screen is often confused for technological sophistication. In fact, it could be really more of an aesthetic design choice.

 

EVs saving the planet? Lol… ok. There are literally diesel generators powering some charging stations, right behind the plug of the charging station.