Needle bearing issue?

Please let us know how it behaves afterward.

 

All squared away now. It had the needle bearing shimmy but all cleared up with the bushing. I have changed a TON of them for people and fixed or preventative fixed the issue

 

This was for someone else's 4R, right?

 

Yeah. I changed ours at the same time as I did the lift in 2018. I do side work here and average 3 a month out of my shop. I'm still surprised and a little disappointed that Toyota is using the same differential after years of knowing there's a problem

 

I figure I'll have to do it at some point. I'm thinking about buying the parts now just to be sure of having them.

 

Always better to do it on your timeline than having to in a pinch. I did one on a forum members that was in CA from ID and his bearing went out here while on vacation in my area. That's why I keep them on the shelf.

 

Did you ever consider making (or have made) a video tutorial of the process? I figure you're pretty much an expert by now.

 

Yeah... I've been thinking about it haha. It's a lot of work (to video it). If I do, I will post a link here. A lot of people make it WAY HARDER than it has to be. Pulling axles out of the hub etc. I've done at least 50 of them by now.

 

What's the average cost of this?

 

I charge $200 labor + parts. Bushing ($60), Seal ($22), crush gasket ($2.75), bulk gear oil ($8). That is my rate in CA. (I am a 2 bay shop without overhead, the cost at full shops ranges a ton)

 

Thanks.

 

Whether you lift a 4runner or taco do it all at the same time & proactively. It's a must in my book for any 3" lift!

On my taco:

New Toytec/Eibach 3" Lift, new bumpstops, Wheelers extended brake lines, ECGS Needle Bearing & Seal (Buy the damn gasket/seal when you order from ECGS!!!!), New OEM LCAs, New Eccentrics, Diff Drop, Carrier Bearing Drop, Swag Bar Drop, SPC UCAs. I also got new TRD Wheels, New Falkens tires, New brake pads and reconstructed calipers. I bought a used set of 2015 taco leafs from craigslist and did a toytec AAL.

I could be forgetting something, but I highly recommend you do everything all at once. Don’t skip on the things that can fuck up your truck because you lifted it e.g. extended brake lines. If anyone needs the ECGS remove tool, check tacoma world. They pass it around and you won't have to buy it

 

This has probably been answered but I just want to confirm my understanding:

1) This is or can be an issue even if I don’t lift or modify my suspension. (Mine: 2023 TRD Pro - I changed tire brands to BFG KO2s but not size.)

2) Being that I purchased the 10y/100K Toyota Platinum VSA if I have an issue I would have to choose to fix it properly w/ the ECGS bushing or continue to let Toyota replace the needle bearing. See attached image for my coverage:

 

^1) Not likely to be an issue if you have stock suspension (i.e. no lift). The needle bearing vibrates when there's side load on them (i.e. CV axle at an angle).
2) Yes it should be covered under the 5yr/60k powertrain warranty as well as your service agreement. IF the vibration develops, the dealer will keep replacing parts with the same P/N until the problem goes away, or gives up and call it "normal". Being a 2023, there won't be any revised parts superseding what you already have in the vehicle.

Plenty of videos on Youtube already. Process is the same between 4Runner and Tacoma. 80% of the time is spent hammering the ECGS bushing in (this is with the ECGS aluminum bushing driver). To help speed up that portion of the process, put the bushing in the freezer the night before.

 

I realize those videos exist, I've watched most of them. I just think @MyWyfsRnnr could bring an interesting perspective on the process since he's done so many.

I've said it before - if I lived closer to him I'd have him proactively do mine, and I don't even have the issue.

 

I've had stock height 2023 4Runner, no lift have the issue. It is definitely not as likely but it can happen.

I will record the next one I do and edit it etc and load to YouTube and post the link (like I did showing the play on needle vs bushing in a previous post)

 

Sharing some thoughts after some years of ownership and messing with my 4runner. Yes, a stock 4runner can have the needle bearing noise. Mine had it brand new, after about 80 miles, on the way home from the dealer. Mine has always been intermittent.

Except…I’ve been messing around with my suspension setting over time, and have been attentive to the general angles of the cv axles as height has changed…

At stock height, the cv angle was slightly negative (outer cv higher than inner cv). I had intermittent noise, usually when temps are around 25-40 degrees outside. Sometimes when a little warmer, but not when it was hot outside.

After my 2.5 lift, I ended up with a increased CV shaft angle in the positive direction…technically it was the same degrees off of zero, but in the other direction compared to stock. My needle bearing noise continued to occur in exactly the same circumstances as stock. It happened at the same times, and same loudness, and just as intermittently.

Once I added a ton of weight, my front end dropped to maybe 1.5 to 2 inches over stock height. My CV angles appeared dead flat. The needle bearing noise went away. Didn’t hear it once in a couple of months.

Then, I recently re-adjusted my front end to about 2.5 in over stock height, the noise is back intermittently, just like at stock height.

So, I really do think this is all about angles…it doesn’t want any angle…at all! Zero degrees is when the needle bearing is happy. Unfortunatley, a new 4runner does not always have flat cv angles from the factory.

A buddy shared the observation that other countries that have the same prado platform with the same part time 4wd system do not complain about needle bearing noise like we do in the the states. Specifically, countries with right hand driver configurations. His theory is that the prado base architecture is set up for the driver on the right side. Which is why the gas tank is on the left. With a driver and a full tank, their CV angles are probably dead flat from the factory. Makes sense to me! Maybe this is why Toyota never considered a recall issue? Or why they never redesigned the needle bearing. Although, if the angle is the cause, it’s stupid for them to replace diffentials with the same exact thing. It would make more sense for them to increase the strength of the front driver shock (more than it already has been) to flatten the angle for the most common load configeration in the US. I bet the extra coil on the driver side is probably enough to compensate for the weight of a typical Japanese person, not a typical American lol.

edit, I suppose I shouldn’t be so confident in this theory until knowing if others that have dead-flat zero angle cv axles, also have quiet needle bearings lol

 

Interesting theory. I just went out and checked, and even after the .85 lift from the Eibach Sport shocks set on the 2nd clip, my CV angles are slightly negative. The wheel end of the CV shaft is a tad higher than the diff side. It had to be even more so prior to the front lift. No needle bearing issues to date.

 

The angle definitely increases the likelihood of feeling it. It puts tension and binds the needle bearing and makes it all more noticable. If you look up in the thread, I moved a 4Runner axle and filmed the "slop" in it on driver and passenger sides as a comparison. Driver side, from factory, no miles on stock suspension, has twice the play than the passenger side. It is all about clearances and angles. The vibration is the axle moving within its tolerances at the differential. If there was less tolerance, there probably wouldn't be a felt issue. Not getting into debates about heat and needle bearing end play etc. Different suspension angles exacerbate the felt issue. It is the factory tolerance/slop that allows the issue and why I say they ALL have the issue, wether it will break, wear or you feel it is another story haha!

 

I'm pretty sure my stock 21' is starting to get an NVH from that bearing. I noticed it after using 4wd in the snow last week. When I do my oil service soon, I'll give things a shakedown to verify it's not a wheel bearing or something else. The bushing is already on the to do list, but not a priority at this point.

 

I have a ‘22 ORP lifted 2”. I’ve read about this over the past couple years, but never thought much of it until I saw this thread again yesterday. I have occasionally noticed a slight pulsing vibration around 40-45 mph under load, but figured it was my a/t tires or rough pavement. It does go away in 4WD, so it sounds like I’ll be looking to get the bushing in the future as well.

If I wasn’t on this forum, I’d probably have driven it forever without any concern. It’s so minor now, but maybe it will get worse over time. I’m only at 18,000 miles currently.

 

When a friend and I did the ECGS bushing we immediately noticed the large amount of slop in the needle bearing (ours came out looking like brand new) compared to bushing. I believe in the angles of the CV joints/axles playing a role in the issue, but there is a definite problem with machining/bearing clearance. Maybe Toyota should have put a bearing on the driver side like the one on the pass. side, a ball instead of a roller? BTW, saw your vid., very informative!

 

What did you do to correct your situation with the needle bearing? The theory about the driver weight is probably not out of the question, axle shaft angles have a lot to do with the bearing "flutter", the real culprit... sloppy tolerance of shaft/roller bearing contact.

 

I’m still on the stock needle bearing. Basically it’s going to make some noise for a bit until it gets really cold, then go quiet until spring.

I’m coming up on 60k miles, so I should probably get the bearing changed out eventually. The only thing that’s holding me back is that the once the bushing is in, you have to split the differential clamshell to get it out. Probably a dumb reason to not want to do it, since it’s probably a permanent fix.

 

I know of a Tacoma with 120k miles on the bushing. It does show a little wear but no damage or spec issues. I will get a pic next time I have it in the shop. We pulled the axle out of curiosity when we had to do a hub. So I have not seen one "wear out" yet. I also think you can get them out without splitting. Either a blind inner bearing puller or getting really into the weeds and splitting the bushing and removing it.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I haven't had to try any of that yet thankfully. I think it would be similar to some of the races in Chevy axles. I will try to find a loose diff I might install and remove the bushing to find out what it will take. I will call some Toyota wreckers today. Curiosity is getting the better of me.

 

Is that for sure? I thought perhaps the tool they sell for removing the needle bearing would also work on the bushing.

 

Disagree unless there's something I'm missing.

Ways I'd do it:

• blind bearing puller (easiest, standard puller set would work)
• tap bush, thread bolt into bush, extract with puller (harder, for the "I make shit happen with the stuff I have at hand" crowd (me))

Pretty standard stuff.

Jason

 

ECGS themselves told me it would require splitting the clamshell. After looking at my bushing, I agree with them. The bushing material makes up most of the thickness. The thin metal case of the bushing has very little meat for a puller to grab onto it. And if you get one on it, it would probably get mashed up pretty good once you start torquing on it….then you start breaking the bushing material, it ends up inside the the diff etc etc.

 

Thanks for the data point on the Tacoma. I keep hearing everybody say they last forever. Not doubting it, because even people that use this bushing material in industrial uses have no problem with how it’s applied in this situation. But it’s always good to get data “on the ground” so to speak. Next time it would be cool to see if you can get a picture!

The point about being spec is kinda funny…because spec seems to be inadequate to keep the noise down to begin with lol.

As far as creative ways to get the bushing out if needed…I’m sure there are ways…in fact the ecgs guy I talked to mentioned cutting it out as a possibility, followed with “it would be a pain in the ass” lol. With my luck, that pain in the ass would be having to take remove and split it anyway because of all the crap I end up dropping in there lol.

Also, getting creative removes the built in excuse to use the diff as a core return for a regeared diff Haha

Edit: since you’ve been in there, do you think there is enough space to use a blind bearing puller with the diff in place? Or would you have to do on the bench?

 

"Spec" I referred to is ECGS play haha. The bushing material is essentially the same as an engine bushing so I don't see any issues necessarily with it wearing out before other catastrophic differential failure haha. There's probably a quarter inch of room behind the bushing before you contact anything else so yes, a blind puller should do the trick. I haven't tried it yet though. I may have found a differential for 150 bucks at the wrecker but I don't know if I have time to go down and spend the money this time of season haha. we'll see how curious I get this weekend.