New crime wave spreading

We're looking at the theft of an "object". The possibility of great bodily harm or the loss of life to the victim or someone in the immediate vicinity is not present. Material things can always be replaced, while it is a major pain in the ass to replace ID. drivers license, s.s. card, etc, in court after the criminal, or the family of the deceased sues you, 99% of the time.... you will do time. It seems wrong, but that is the way it is, at least here in Wis.

 

You're correct. But, as mentioned earlier, when someone forces their way into your vehicle, while you're still in it, you may not know their intentions.

It could depend on the situation. If the victim were a woman, which It looks like they typically will be, they might be concerned about getting sexually assaulted, as well. In which case I think lethal force is justified.

As you said , they might get sued. And, they might lose. But, if they genuinely felt their life was in danger, they would be justified in the eyes of most people.

 

Which is different than people online talking about how how they would totally have shot the guy in this situation where you have the benefit of knowing that it was a case of pure theft.

Someone who repeatedly makes it clear that they are willing to use deadly force, even in situations where it wasn’t legally justified based upon the outcome, is someone who appears to want to be in a situation that gives them the opportunity to shoot and kill someone - that’s premeditation.

The goal of gun ownership shouldn’t be to use it, as some indicate here. The best case scenario for anyone who owns a gun is that they only use it for hunting or target practice.

 

I agree. I didn't really notice anyone stating that they were actually hoping for an opportunity to shoot someone. But, I skimmed through a lot of the comments.

If anyone is saying they would have shot them, they might be imagining their reaction in the moment, rather than what they think is right after knowing the facts.

You're correct about gun ownership goals. My understanding is that a lot of what you learn in CCI classes is about avoiding situations where you really think you're likely to need it. This is also why I don't go to shitty areas if I don't have to.

 

On a side bar from intent, that item (purse) could contain highly important medical products. Inhaler, insulin, blood pressure, ie a Grand Parents prescription. This would be considered a lot more than an inconvenience imo.

So, the thief may not have violent intentions, but the fall out could be deadly, especially if the victim has health issues to start with.

Does that mean the perp was complicit in actually harming a victim during the act of petty theft to where it should be a manslaughter charge if the victim should die?

The argument of just losing material things in a robbery is not a solid one imo.

The problem is so many will be injured, traumatized, or killed, before we as Americans put an end to the notion of petty crime and actually enforce the laws that have been in place for centuries.

The ideals of a demographic, should not endanger a society, but they are, plain and simple.

 

People are a product of their surroundings. I have a strange love/hate relationship with Texas, kind of like Stockholm syndrome kind of crap. Lived in DFW for a year and a half and left. It was too stressful for our taste.

 

I agree. That's why I personally would consider it justified (unless, of course, you shoot them as they're running away). In the split second you have to react, you don't have time to consider the perp's intent, or the legal consequences of your actions. You're thinking about your immediate safety.

I think it's unfortunate that people can get sued for wrongful death by the families of criminals (except in circumstances where lethal force is clearly unjustified). The fact is, in a scenario like this, they wouldn't have been hurt if they hadn't been committing a crime. It's one of those "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" situations.

 

This approach isn't anything NEW. Criminals have always taken advantage of people's lack of situational awareness and their surroundings. It's how they find their targets/victims. Our distracted society just makes it easier than ever to pull off, so you're seeing it more and more.

 

The amount of people I see glued to their phones while in their vehicle or in public is astonishing. Quite easy to be a target when you're hypnotized by technologies spell. I'm still curious of the long term effects since it's fairly new. It can't be good.

 

CPL/CCW/CCI classes are kind of a joke. The goal is to get everyone who takes it to pass, even though not everyone should.

 

This is going to sound cruel, but in a way this can be seen as modern day natural selection. Those that are so unaware of their surroundings that they become the low hanging fruit may draw the predators away from the obviously vigilant.

 

Criminals don't take any classes, they just carry. And I'm sure they're all top tier shooters.

 

I agree this society is WAY too distracted. But, our daughters, wives, mothers and grand mothers should not be considered part of the natural selection SMFH.

How about when you take your child out of a car seat? Kinda hard to be vigilant.

I thought we are supposed to be a civilized society. I guess the current state of the union doesn't allow this any longer?
IMO these creeps need to be DEALT WITH!!!

 

The criminal’s intentions are impossible to know except in hindsight. This guy in the video could have had a weapon and been trying to carjack, kidnap, or just kill her. We only know he was after the purse because we see that in the video. She had no way of knowing. Also, I wish people would quit thinking that “unarmed” and “harmless” mean the same thing. They don’t. Just ask the people murdered during the 2005 Atlanta courthouse shootings. Had the deputy that the prisoner beat so severely that she needs 24/7 care for life been able to draw her weapon and kill him, I’m sure there would’ve been a gigantic uproar about the poor unarmed man. Yeah.

 

The goal of those classes isn’t supposed to be to turn you into a Marine scout sniper.

Those classes are supposed to make sure that you emerge as someone who is capable of being a responsible and law abiding gun owner.

I’d rather fail such a class than get a passing grade with the result being that I would be a danger to myself or my community.

Unfortunately, I suspect too many people view a failing grade as the fault of the instructor rather than the student.

 

Of course not, but you better be hitting center mass lol. I've seen a few fail the CCW class, mostly on the shoot. Literally shooting the ceiling. Instructor gave them the boot While I don't think they should hand them out like candy, I am of the camp that a armed society is a polite one and I wish more people would exercise their rights to do so.

But ya, it's really the responsibility of the person to train frequently, especially carrying. Skills diminish over time and people tend to forget that.

 

Still, the biggest threats to your safety come from people you know, unfortunately.

Between avoiding people you know, and simply avoiding high crime areas if one has the economic means to do so, you will be alright.

 

As we say in my line of work: better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.

Not exactly reassuring words, but it has a lot of truth.

 

Nothin' a 9mm can't solve

 

I never said it was, those are your words my friend. My point is that most reasonable people get their license to stop a threat, not to pound their chest on the internet. As far as the OP's video, I think a locked door and situational awareness would have prevented this particular discussion thread.

 

FIFY

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cvag5OMtWy3/

 

“I can’t watch the video with the sound on, because you can hear the terror in my voice”. That’s pretty traumatic and she’ll be affected for quite a while.

Wonder what she would have said if she blew his brain matter all over the interior.

 

I WAS an instructor when I was on active duty. Myself, and the other Instructors on the Rifle and Pistol ranges taught all the WMs on base to shoot. Up to that point, none of them had been required to qual, like the Male Marines did. Some of the WMs on both the Rifle and pistol ranges were actually scary to begin with. We qualed them all eventually. Some took more effort than others, but we qualed them all.

It was all the Instructors, teaching them the how to, and sticking with it, that got the scary ones shooting like Marines in the end. There is no one that can't be taught to shoot, with the right techniques, and stick-to-it-iveness on the part of the instructor. NO ONE.

 

Some food for thought.......

Assuming a woman is carrying.........where do the vast majority conceal?

Does your opinion on use of lethal force change depending on if that force is used during the moment that could be construed as a physical attack vs. stepping out of the car and shooting a fleeing perp? How is it that I/you determine the criminal intent in that exact moment. Are we granted any leeway in measuring that threat at that moment and if yes, how much, who measures and to what fraction of an inch?

What level of situational awareness do I have to possess/use for a perpetrator to be the bad guy? Knowing what most of us know about the top handful of violent crime/felony theft capitals in the country, am I mostly to blame should a situation go sideways simply by my presence? I should have know better after all?
On my phone in a parking garage? At night in bad part of town? At Noon next to the courthouse? In my driveway?
What's the sliding scale here?

What do you suppose the suicide rate is within 12 months of lay people using deadly force even when justified? Not discussing folks that put themselves in harms way via lifestyle or profession, let's use the woman in the video as our base group. Decent folks minding their own business in wrong place/wrong time.

Is there any situation that we have any right to presume we won't have a crime committed against us? Should we just accept the inevitable and be happy wasn't worse?

All rhetorical for social media time killing, don't put fingers to keyboard. Please.

 

I’m sure everyone will be reassured to know that the same approach is used with airline pilots. It’s called “train to proficiency” but the problem is that some are incapable of proficiency. There have been too many instances where pilots made mistakes that would get a student pilot grounded and ended up crashing airliners.

 

Same here…
Walmart shoplifters are featured on the local nightly news for tips.