Introduction & Another Tire Size Thread

I’ve put about 15k since I finished.

From a stock LE, to my ‘slightly modified’; Night and day difference. I clear a bunch of stuff that can hang up, or cross up stock 4Runners

Which segues into articulation. I took my time and flexed the suspension without shocks and springs to verify and fix any contact with the tires. I feel it’s working as well as it can.

 

If you are wheelin on the rocks out there, nothing beats a Jeep. To fit 35s, you will need to do a lot. Some people even buy those fiberglass fenders instead of doing all of the trim work. I very much disagree with anything above a 2" lift on Toyota IFS. It doesn't help you, just means you will need expensive suspension parts

 

I notice no performance hit with 255/80s. The E-rated Toyo OC AT/3 are 50lbs, so not crazy heavy. I get the same gas mileage. It was slow with the 265/70s, it’s just as slow with the 255/80s. I get a true 33” tire. They look good, and handle the trails just fine.

 

Thanks for pointing that out. I looked at Jeep's site again and found what you are talking about. Its the 3.6 with "eTorque" and stop/start. I get where you are coming from but I don't think a new Rubicon is for me. I really do love my 4Runner, and would rather have a larger 4.0 naturally aspirated engine with no bells and whistles that will go 300k+ miles (my dads '09 Tacoma with the 4.0 has well over that). Some are saying Toyota is behind the times as far as style and innovation, but I personally prefer simplicity and tried-and-true products that just do what they're supposed to do. I do know that Jeeps, especially Rubicons, are far superior off road (solid front axle, lockers at both ends, electronic swaybar disconnects, better tires and gearing from factory) and I factored that all into my decision and still decided on the 4Runner. As I said, I will probably build another TJ at some point if I really want to go crawl over big rocks.

You're right, I do contradict myself on several points, don't I? I guess I'm still learning about 4Runners and maybe a little confused on what I want or what's best for the vehicle. All the pavement princesses on instagram with their 35" tires misled me I suppose. Let me try to clarify. I just want to go with the biggest tire size and lift height possible without causing any mechanical issues, and without sacrificing the reliability and longevity of the 4Runner, which are the qualities that drew me to in in the first place. It's important to know that I will be regearing if I upsize at all, and gas mileage is not much of a factor for me. I would like to go bigger than the 265, if possible. I was just saying my aim is not to put the biggest tires possible on it to make it look cool. It's mainly about performance to me (I do think the 265's look small but I guess I could stay with them if it's really the best option). Let's just say I did a trail over the weekend in AZ with a 4/10 technical rating according to onX, and the truck handled it fine, but I was really wishing I had more in terms of tire size and clearance.

 

Please expand on this. Someone else said something about not going over 2". I want to be clear that I will be putting a legit suspension lift on it and not just "pucks" or adjustable height shocks. I'll probably go with something in the $1000 - $2000 range (the OME kit with the yellow shocks is one example), so on the lower end, but I will still have all new springs and shocks, along with UCA's to keep the geometry in check.

The only other reasons I can think of for you saying this are down-travel and CV angle. I'm going to ask a question that will probably sound dumb, but why do you guys care so much about down-travel? I mean, I get it, you want your tires to stay on the ground as much as possible to maintain traction (which is why solid axle is superior to IFS), but if I have A-Trac and eventually will have a front locker, I don't see that being an issue really. As far as CV angle, this seems to be a topic of debate. Some say you need a diff drop for a 3" lift while others say you can get by without it and that the diff drop just causes other issues. For the purposes of this conversation, let's just say I won't be installing a diff drop.

Is there something else I'm missing? Is it just bad for the ball joints and other parts to bottom out? If I have to go with 2", so be it. Just trying to understand why.

 

The fewer the number of wheels on the ground, the more stress on the remaining wheels that have traction. Also, usually by the time the traction control kicks in all momentum has been lost.

 

I’d like to recommend a channel Tinkerers Adventure, or something like that.

Kai has compiled an impressive collection of videos that dissect how the Toyota IFS works. Spend some quality time with these.

Another great resource is Ben, at Filthy Motorsports

I personally use these to learn about how the suspension works and better understand the compromises one makes when modifying the Toyota.

I think you’ll find it enlightening.

Cheers
Mike

 

Awesome! Thanks so much! As you can tell, I nerd out on this stuff. I'm interested in the "why" and the engineering behind this stuff which will lead me to my own conclusion. What would really be cool would be to speak with an actual Toyota engineer, but not sure if that's possible or if they'd have anything to say about aftermarket mods.

 

Ahh the old fashioned front wheel raising to say hi to your spotter when you crest over an obstacle. The opposite happens and the rear end waves bye to whomever is trailing you.

There's a lot going on when it comes to droop on Toyota IFS. The shocks are the most apparent limiting factor when it comes to droop up front, but of course that's only if you're speaking about one side that's been isolated from the other. Sway bar is another limiting factor more or less that if you're drooping one side. The other is compressed which causes both sides to pull at each other. One pulling up and one pulling down. Other wise everything else is ok even with a typical 2 or 3 inch lift. Worrying about components like CV or ball joint angles should be saved for when you start doing long travel things.

Vehicle owners forums tend to push ideals to neuroticism. No traction? BAD! Heavy tire? BAD! Tire rub? BAD! Just build how you want and keep it manageable for yourself. Don't forget to wave hi to a Toyota that's waving a front wheel at you.

 

Hahahaha I love this response. Yes it seems that in the Toyota world, that "waving hi" is just part of the game unless you are sticking to really easy terrain. If you really wanted to articulate and stay on the ground you'd need a solid front axle. Right now, I want to stick to stock LCA's and probably will have my sway bar disconnected (oh no, am I opening another can of worms?). If I go to bigger tires than stock, I will re-gear, and if I re-gear, I will install a front locker. So losing momentum as I wait for A-Trac to kick in won't be an issue. So many companies sell 3" lifts and so many people run them. That begs the question "are all these people doing it wrong?".

New to this forum, but not my first rodeo. I swapped the auto transmission out of a '78 Camaro and installed an M22 Muncie 4spd in my parents garage when I was 16. I learned a lot from the 2nd gen Camaro forum I was on (one local guy even helped me re-gear the diff), but yeah everybody has their own opinion and it's hard to tell what's really true. Everyone told me not to do that transmission conversion, but I did anyway and it was awesome, and still sold the car for more than I paid.

 

Here’s my Toy with comically small 265’s.

 

Haha looks good! Truly! To each their own and I meant no offense to anyone. And I do have to say it looks better with a tire that actually has some tread as opposed to the H/T that come on it. I could be wrong but that tire looks slightly bigger than stock. I know that different manufacturers and tire models can be slightly different even if they have the same size on the sidewall.

My personal opinion is that the 4Runner looks pretty good stock (way better looking vehicle than a jeep or bronco), but I wish it came with slightly bigger tires and the front leveled with the back. I don't like the rake and how the tire is so close to the fender on the front.

 

If you want slightly bigger go to 285 70 17s, if you want larger 285 75 17. For suspension parts go with dobinson. They have long/extended travel shocks and all necessary parts to get the most travel out of the ifs without breaking the budget.

 

I agree, selecting a tire with a more aggressive tread makes it look larger. I will admit, when I made the decision to go back to stock size 265-70-17 I was concerned that they would look a lot smaller, but I was pleased with the Nitto RG’s. They are a LT tire so that may contribute to a little more tread. My boys were disappointed that I was removing the 285’s, but once they saw the new tires, they liked it.
Most people on this forum are Nitto haters but I like them. The hybrid tread design is surprisingly quiet on pavement.

 

I know y'all know what a stock 5th gen looks like, but here are some pics of mine and some places I've been with it. My sister named it Forrest due to alliteration and I haven't come up with anything better yet.

Out with the old, in with the new.





Not my proudest moment.


The jeep I keep talking about.

 

Great pictures!

Looks good to me. Once you decide on some tires, you’ll be good to go.

 

The shocks lengths for out the box kits have the same extended shock length as oem save for maybe an added .5" on some. That's one way to gain some droop. With that said going 3"+ isn't a bad thing but the net result shifts the stroke lengths. Longer compression stroke and a shorter extension stroke. It's all give and take when it comes to working within the constraints of the factory suspension until you start changing major components like LCA. Take a peek at how much of a vertical angle the LCA of a Toyota that's lifted 3" on factory LCA. That's a long way to the bump stop and lots of spring and shock action. Enter the variable for weight and you really get the suspension going... or not.

I'm also relatively new to the forum but not new to suspension work. I come from sport compacts and did a lot of suspension work to get what i can for some autocross and light duty road course. nothing world breaking but it did teach me a thing or two which translates OK into this realm. There's a enough knowledge in here that if I'm off course someone will come along and correct me.

 

Off-road suspension by Slinky.

 

Cool pics. This is what it might look like with 285/75/17’s

 

See, to me that looks awesome. Thanks for sharing. Only thing I'd change on mine is I'd go with a milder tread for less road noise, and a more negative offset wheel for a slightly wider stance, without getting too crazy where it causes rubbing. I'm thinking like -12mm which would set me up for 35/12.5, if I ever did want to upgrade to that. I also like a more leveled look, so I'd go a little lower in the back or a little higher in the front. But those are just my personal preferences. That's a great looking 4Runner you got there!

How does it perform? What is your approximate front and rear lift amounts? And what gear do you run? I only see people talk about 4.56, 4.88, and 5.29. Personally, I think that something like 4.10 would work best, but I'm not sure that exists. Nitro doesn't have them at least.

 

Here is a mine with a 3" front and rear OME lift. I have Method 704 wheels with 295/70/17 Yokohama Geolandar MT G003. I know you wanted to go with AT's, and I will probably go that way after these tires wear down. Although I will add for MT's they are not very loud. I do live in Southern California and this truck sees all types of terrain. I do have a BMC and very minor trimming. I don't have any rubbing.

 

Here’s my LE prior to upgrading. I did have a Sherpa rack, Rock Warrior wheels and stock BFGs

and after I was “done”

 

This guy does a lot of great videos on Toyota IFS. He does comparisons with the sway bar on vs off, and lifted travel versus stock travel. I highly recommend you take a look.

https://youtu.be/_68Hc8GtLko

Here's another great video illustrating how lifts affect IFS and tire clearance.

https://youtu.be/33VewJFda1Q

 

Welcome. I too rocked a Sienna…had the thing for 14 years since new. That was probably the best road-going utility vehicle on earth if you ask me. Maybe I exaggerate a bit lol, but that van treated me well.

Regarding your quest for the perfect 4runner, Some things have been mentioned that are biggies:

-watch Tinkerers videos, all of them. He’s also an engineer and a nerd of the highest order, so be ready to take notes.

-I had K02 load c in 265/70 size for 45k miles. Very quiet tires btw. Traction in “non-mud” situation was never an issue when properly aired down (low 20s psi fir me). Even on level 6 trails. Mud is a different matter. I don’t avoid mud, but I dont go looking for trouble either, and I havent been stuck yet. Rear locker and atrac together really go a really long way. Don’t underestimate what it can do with just upgrading to a good set of ATs

-the steering system on 4runners is it’s achilles heel. No way around that. Some really serious folks have upgraded to tundra racks because of it. We’re not just talking about power steering pumps going bad, but full-on bent tie rods, bulged PS lines, wrecked rack and damaged mounts. All it takes is hitting hitting the wrong rock at the wrong speed for the steering wheel to get yanked from your hands and send a water hammer down the line. 4runner’s IFS geometry results in very light/quick steering, and I think that also means the wheels can be influence much easier when rolling over something big too fast. Wheels with poke, or wider tires will give rocks more external leverage over your steering. So keep that steering wheel held tight, and be gentle when you are working the wheel.

On the PS subject. My pump started to make some of that “grainy whine” noise at 46kish miles. I could only hear it with windows down when next to another car to reflect the noise back at me. But I didn’t like it, so I flushed the fluid. Now it’s quiet. It’s the first vehicle I ever owned that did that, and I never flushed out PS fluid on any previos car (I know,shame on me). So I definitely wont be ignoring it from now on.

-2.5in /1.5 lift has never let me down. Well, except for that down travel thing. I have Dobinson IMS and I didn’t think they topped out, but I’ve seen it top out in videos when Im climbing something really steep. It looks janky…and the tires lose traction because of it. I was going to lower it down a smidge, but recently decided to get ridiculously heavy armor instead. That oughta bring the front suspension down lol.

-the 4runner frame is more level than it actually looks. When people go for that “visually level” look, the rear is actually squatting a bit when referenced off the frame. This makes a big difference in road feel, especially when you load up the back for camping, and squat even more.

-I am also totally not about the looks or the gram…bunch a posers if you ask me, but I decided to get 285/70-17s K02’s last week. Damn, they look HOT! Mmm mmm MMMM! I hope they improve something in off-road situations, even though I cant think of what…..oh wait, yeah, that’s right….I got them for a half inch more clearance because I dragged my rear diff and rear shock mounts a couple of times. See? it was a perfectly reasonable decision! . Did I mention they look hot?

Have fun modding your 4runner to suit your tastes and needs! Personally, I’ve had the most fun in a long time doing that with mine! At least little by little. This forum helps a lot too (spending your money) with advice.

You’re an engineer, so you probably already know much of the art comes down to finding the right balance. I’m smitten by how wonderful a machine the 4runner is, but it’s possible to make it a miserable thing with the wrong mods. So don’t over do it! I suggest you learn what it can do stock or near stock, take notes, and have a clear justification for whatever you decide to change. It makes it easier to live with the compromises that will result from any changes you decide to make.

 

What rack is that?

 

Baja Rack

 

Nice looking rig. I have same rack and don't see many of them.

 

Thank you, this rack has held up really well.

 

Thank you for taking the time to put thought into this and type it out.

Yeah people simply don't understand unless they experience the Sienna lol. Everyone thought it was just funny, but that thing was a work horse. Super great car. Mine was named The Silver Bullet and she's a legend. I spent most of my childhood being driven around in it by my parents, and then it was passed to me and I drove it all over the US. My friends and I have lots of good memories with that van. Now someone is driving their family around Las Vegas in it lol. Had 250k on it and going strong when I sold it.

You're the third person to mention the Tinkerers videos so I will definitely be checking those out.

Yes I've heard that about the truck being more level than most think. I think what most people (or I, at least), look at is the space between the tire and the wheel well, but that isn't necessarily the best way to judge it as the front and back wheel wells may have different dimensions (not sure if I said that right but hopefully it makes sense). You'd really need to measure off of some reference point that is a straight level line down the length of the truck, like the frame for example like you said. Still, I'm seeing that most people, including you, lift it an inch higher in the front than the back, so there must be some amount of rake to correct. I'm ok with a slight rake, especially incase I weigh the back down with cargo/armor/bumper in the future. I just don't like the look of a drastic rake or a ton of rear wheel well showing. Looks off to me, and raises center of mass.

Everything you said was pretty spot on. Again, I don't want to just throw the biggest tires and lift on it. I'm on the same page as you guys, realizing that the 35" tires and all the instagrammable stuff is overkill in most cases. I guess I do care about looks a little bit, but looks definitely come second to functionality. I've just started my research but I have a ways to go. It's definitely going to be a balancing act to get it to perform the way I want it to, but I'm sure I'll figure it out with time. I may have to throw some 265 all terrains on it before I get to the point where I'm ready to lift and re-gear it. And that way I'll have a chance to push it to its limit stock, like you said. Wheeling with these H/T's freaks me out. Most of the places I go, there are sharp rocks and I can just see one of those things getting sliced open.

Once again, thanks for all the replies guys. I've learned a lot already from this one thread.

 

The most accurate way to do it would be to use some type of digital level and just find the slope of the frame. Once you have that angle and the wheelbase, which can be easily be measured or googled, you could calculate the exact rake. But like you said it's not an exact science and truthfully doesn't really matter that much anyway lol.