EPA proposes new tailpipe rules that could push EVs to make up two-thirds of new car sales in US by

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/12/politics/car-pollution-standards-electric-vehicles-biden-climate/index.html

EPA is proposing tailpipe emission rules so strict that carmakers would need two-thirds of their sales to be zero-emission by 2032.

 

I saw this, and as pro-EV as I am (as I can be being a 4Runner owner), it's ambitious in a lot of ways. Perhaps too ambitious. Hopefully the innovation keeps on accelerating and the infrastructure is actually there when we get to the finish line.

This could be good for us 5th gen owners. It might push Toyota to keep it around longer in order to develop a 6th gen with hybrid for the cutoff when that comes to pass. It would be interesting to see a 6th gen with a big beef hybrid system.

Of course, costs would have to come down. My pay isn't going up very much with this inflation. If a 6th gen hybrid costs $50,000, then I'm going to find myself in Camry country.

 

It's kind of a moot point.

The Auto Industry has a very similar electrification goal by the same time frame.

 

Idiocracy

 

Fuck the EPA

 

I actually don't mind this, and I really would like to buy a hybrid for myself. My problem is the same one that I'm sure a lot of other people have, not wanting to get into a $600+ a month car payment. I have no payment on my 10-year-old 4runner, and I'm trying to save to buy a house at some point before I'm freaking 50 (fuck me, right? Lol). The last thing I need is to spend the greater part of $1,000 a month on a new vehicle unless I plan on living in it.

I say hybrid because I think a hybrid is the logical step before going full EV, I really think they should be trying to focus on more hybrids that can later be converted to full electric as the infrastructure improves. Many people are without the luxury of being able to charge at home as homeownership is getting more and more out of reach, so how are renters going to be able to charge?

If they really truly want people to switch over to EVs, they're going to have to subsidize the hell out of them, because that current joke of a tax credit ain't gonna do it.

 

So, our taxes are going to be used to build EV charging stations? How about letting the manufacturers and consumers of EV's pay for that shit?

 

If EV's were as great as some folks seem to think, the government wouldn't have to pay people to buy them.

Don't get me wrong, they're probably great for folks who don't travel. But, I certainly couldn't continue my lifestyle if I was forced to buy an EV.

 

They're fantastic if you're a normie who commutes to work and back and only takes the occasional long trip which counts for most people who drive and are in a situation to have charging available at home. For long trips, rent a car.

Get in the habit of charging overnight. You'll never be wanting for range. It'll prolong the lifespan of the battery, too. Subjecting the battery to lots of low intensity charging will make it last a lot more years than if you hit up fast chargers all the time.

This forum is filled with enthusiasts. We are not the target demographic, at least not with our 4Runners. I'd love to have a $15,000 Nissan Sakura EV (they sell them in Japan, look it up, though inflation probably upped the price some) to use as my commuter. It would be perfect for getting me back and forth to work every day and for shopping places that I dread parking my 4Runner at because it's bigger than Ron Jeremy and handles like a battleship. I'm not paying $28,000 for a Nissan Leaf EV. We Americans are stupid. We pay too much for fancy crap that we don't need. I want one of those cheap EVs.

 

Do you live in a rural or urban setting? What sort of climate do you live in? What do you use your vehicle for? I agree with @Thatbassguy, for where I live and what I use my vehicle for (and for 99% of the people where I live), EVs would be utterly ridiculous. And according to what study you read (which in today’s world with biased opinions is hard to decipher what to believe), EVs are no better for the environment as a whole or those involved with the procedures involved with the mining of the minerals involved. Even Shoichiro Toyoda was not sold on an all EV environment, but somehow the powers that be believe that electric is the only way.

 

You don't sound like a normie. These regulations are not for you. Enjoy the 4 of 10 vehicles that will be made under these regulations that will fit your lifestyle better.

Also, as battery technology improves over the next 10 years and beyond, your concerns will be assuaged. Do you not have electricity at home?

To answer your questions, suburban, New Jersey climate, and mostly commuting. (We're not allowed to have fun in NJ.) So, I'm a normie. That's why a cheap Nissan Sakura would be great for me and for a whole heck of a lot of people across the country.

 

I have electricity at home, but not on the back forty. Until electrons can be put in a can, EVs are useless. I am all for hybrids, but unfortunately our government is dead set on skipping that step altogether. I am from Kentucky. Mostly rural for the whole state. The problem is who gets to decide what the “normie” is. For the largest portions of our country (who control the land where your food comes from), you are not a “normie.” Especially from where I come from, and the majority of the population where I live. What people are getting fed up with, especially the rural community which covers a much larger area than urban, are small pockets of the country that contain large populations that are totally out of touch with the reality of so many others that are wanting to control their lives, and livelihoods. Something has to change. Compromises have to be made. Or an even better idea would be to give people choices. You can only poke a sleeping bear so long, and some of us have gotten pretty sore from all the poking.

 

Yes, I'll admit that I'm certainly not the target market. My 4runner sits all week and then I put ~500 miles on it average every weekend. Or, I'll put 1400 miles on it in less than 24 hours. So, I'm certainly not the right person for an EV. At least, not in their current form.

But, when someone who is pro EV is saying that the tax credit being offered isn't good enough, it certainly doesn't sound like they're very appealing.

I think something like that little Nissan you mentioned would be a great seller here. I'm not sure why we don't get a lot of the cool foreign vehicles we hear about, but It seems like it's usually about safety features or emissions.

I'm not anti-EV. I just don't like the government trying to legislate progress. I'd rather have the manufacturers make the vehicles better, and then everyone would want them.

 

It's not a matter of them being great or not, it's the cost. There are not going to be any 5k beaters around for the people that can barely pay rent, never mind purchase a new car, and the number of people in that category is only going to increase as greed-flation continues.

 

When the economy crashes and most of the people thinking of buying an EV lose a good portion of their wealth, these discussions will be pushed back 10 to 15 years.

 

Plug in Hybrids should be the focus. We get about 50 miles on a charge from home, and when traveling use the hybrid engine.

 

Such awesome scenery to look forward to though....

 

This is what I would like. 50 miles is enough that most people would rarely need to fuel up on a typical day, but would still be practical on long trips.

 

we go months between gas station visits. I just wish the Rav4 Prime would track EV miles versus Hybrid, then I could space out my oil changes and other motor maintenance.

 

Does the tax credit apply to used vehicle purchases as well? I assumed you were talking about new vehicles. Just a quick search shows that there are plenty of electric vehicles that cost less than a 4Runner. So, I figure most of us could afford them.

But, you're right that the used EV market won't be very appealing at all. With batteries having a limited lifespan, high mileage EVs will be too risky for most people shopping for inexpensive vehicles. This is another downside of current EV's. If they ever find a better power source, I think things will get better.

 

This seems like the most practical option for most people right now. And, it's the closest thing to a true EV I could see myself owning.

I would change the oil every 6 months or at least annually regardless of mileage. I'd also make it a point to exercise the ICE engine regularly. Or, does it kick into hybrid mode pretty regularly on its own?

 

Battery tech is improving, and is moving toward eliminating lithium and cobalt in batteries and replacing with materials like sodium and graphene, and at the same time vastly improving charge times and capacity. A little bump to incentivize development of this tech is a good thing, which can be in the form of the largest military in the world adopting electric vehicles, or more strict tailpipe emission standards.

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...ffering-to-meet-armys-electric-vehicle-needs/

 

To produce the amount of forced EVs to be purchased by 2032? This tech would already need to be in place and functioning. Hopefully for all the EV proponents out there, this happens soon.

 

Right now we use 10K intervals, and we average 15k a year. I use ICE when I get on the highway, if I am going above 50/55. The ICE is used more in the winter for day to day driving as when its cold, the ICE heat is faster and better for defrost.

 

Then I have normie privilege. Whatever. Fine, not on the back forty. Forty percent of vehicles are going to be for that back forty. Pickup trucks aren't going away. Farming equipment isn't going away. Look at the comments section on Ars Technica for the article on this subject. You've got some people complaining about how this plan doesn't go far enough, and you've got other people saying "just take the win" and "don't let perfect be the enemy of good". Relax. You and your Kentucky neighbors will be fine, and the city folk in Kentucky and everywhere else are going to have plenty of zero emissions options that they'll have plenty of enough range to use to get to your farm and back.

 

Oh yeah, screw this. It's so ugly. Now this one below, this is the kind of scenery that gets me in the mood.

 

The new tax credit guidelines do apply to used vehicles to at least some extent.

I wouldn't rule out the battery any worse than I'd rule out an ICE vehicle for being high mileage with respect to its engine and stuff being worn out due to use. Either way, things die. Your high mileage 20 year old ICE isn't going to last another 20 years being put through the same stress as it was the first 20 years. Don't go around telling that to everyone though. Because this kind of thinking is going to drive down prices if there's an undue air of unreliability.

But a $5,000 beater? That's a gamble even for ICE.

 

Of course any used vehicle is a gamble. But, we don't even know what the lifespan of these batteries is going to be. And, as far as I know, it's not something the average home mechanic can replace.

Meanwhile, ICE engines and transmissions are generally fairly straightforward to remove and reinstall. Heck, I've swapped motors in 2 of my Toyotas, and taken part in numerous engine swaps and transmission removal/replacement.

Most of the vehicles I've bought have had at least 80,000 miles on them, and I've never had a concern about any impending major mechanical failure. I certainly wouldn't have the same confidence in an EV.

 

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Oh yea, toxic pools with solar and wind farms for as far as the eye of the beholder can see.... smh.