Sanity check for build

Planning a build and have some questions + any advice is very welcome as I don't have a ton of experience with audio.

HU:
Alpine Halo 9 iLX-F509

Front Speakers:
JL Audio VX600/6i 6 channel Class D full range w/ DSP. 75 watt per channel
6x9 Morel Tempo Ultra 692 MKII 2-way component system 150 watt RMS

Rear + Hatch Speaker:
Morel Hybrid Integra 62, 2-way coaxial, 100 watt RMS

Sub:
Focal FDS 1.350 350 watt RMS
JL Audio stealth sub box w/ 10TW3-D4, 400 watt RMS, 800 watt peak

Is it just stupid and unnecessary to get a 6 channel amp instead of just wiring the rear in series?

If the rear is wired in series would the amp need double the wattage to cover double the speakers?

If the front Morels are 150 RMS and the amp is 75 RMS, should i get a speaker with lower RMS? will it not get as loud / any issues here? and if that's the case then would Sony XS-692ES 2-way component, 110 RMS be better for the front?

 

Or maybe it would be better to get a 5 channel amp without DSP for both the speakers and the sub, run the rear speakers in series, and save a lot of money.

 

I noticed Crutchfield has substantially more expensive 6.5 3 way component speakers than the 6x9 options. Does anyone ever replace with 6x9 with a 6.5 + tweeter, then put the other speaker in the dash for 3 way?

 

If you run in series you raise the impedance and you won’t get some mid/ lower frequencies. Your amp should be 2 ohm stable so you can run 2 per side parellel?

 

Yeah that's a good point. Thanks for the sanity check there. You could run 2 pairs of 2 ohm speakers right? Would work in series with 4 ohm channels?

 

No, IMO you need no fewer than 6 channels, especially if you plan to use a DSP. What I am confused about is why you aren’t planning to run active in front.

Let’s talk about that 75W RMS… it’s just not enough IMO. Ideally you’d like to have 100-130W for the door woofer and 50W for the dash speaker depending on what you install. It’s disappointing that JL doesn’t make a staggered power amplifier. They really should…

What I recommend for the 4Runner is three amplifiers:

1. 100-130W x 4 to power the front woofers, and rear+hatch
2. 50-75W x 2 for HF speakers in the dash
3. 800W+ x 1 for subwoofer

So this gives you plenty of power for everything and the active front stage will make you forget all about whatever those suckers in the rear are getting (it’s plenty, really). It also necessitates a stand alone DSP.

The challenge here is finding amplifiers small enough. Fortunately there are a few options, unfortunately they aren’t the cheap options. Also, running speaker wire is a huge pain in the ass, except to the dash. This is the reason I gave up after doing the fronts, I was just sick of fighting it and didn’t feel that it was necessary.

I don’t know what kind of audio guy you are but I saw JL in your OP, and not the cheap shitty JL stuff, so I thought maybe you might not be the kind of guy that throws in Kickers and pretends like they are awesome all over the internet. If that’s the case, I think you might find your proposed rig somewhat anemic.

At the very least I think you should consider a more powerful 4 Channel with a passive front setup.

 

This is so full of false information…..

First, you are better off running a 2-way active front stage over ANY scenario where you worry about rear fill. 3-way front stage is ideal due to the nature of beaming/reflections/and proper wave dispersion. Focus on your soundstage, not the number of speakers and wattage.

Second, you disconnect the hatch speakers and BAM! You have the rear fill in the back doors. No, impedences do not “make some frequencies disappear”, rise in impedence lowers the usable wattage as an unregulated amplifier has a power supply capable of X, the impedence drives the output result. Regulated power supplies are both common and prevent this. Power is insignificant in practice, musically an amplifier puts out dynamic power which is transient and usually no more than a few watts. To clarify, the current draw of an amplifier on musical signal is roughly 30% of a pure sine wave at 0db attenuation.

there are many better solutions at a better price point. The morel woofer is decent but the tweeter leaves a lot to be desired. You are much better off getting a proper full range 2.5/3” and letting the roll off take care of the high frequency challenges caused by off-axis/beaming. Rear fill does not require teeeters, or much output for that matter. You would ideally cut at 800hz and only need faint output, factory speakers are more than capable. Any detail behind will adversely affect the soundstage.

Audiofrog makes excellent small footprint 4-channel and monoblock solutions, with good output and stability. They can be tucked in the factory sub location without issue (mocked up a xd800/8 and twk in same space without issue).

Processing processing processing. Even a 13 band pioneer double din w/time alignment is sufficient…. 300 bucks with CarPlay. Unless you have extensive tuning experience and a calibrated mic, the Tun software by JL does you no good. Having 10 bands per channel is huge, but only if you know how to properly equalize each side independently and blend.

I say all this to say: the gear is a small part of the performance. It all comes down to the install and tuning.

My recommendation (at the cheapest price/performance):

Factory jbl woofers
Audiofrog gs25 - $270
Rockford T1000-5 - $849
pioneer “carplay” w/ processing - $350
Integration (maestro) - $250
Power/rca’s/speed wire for tap of factory wiring - $250 ish

2k all in and it will outperform anything you imagine (if installed correctly).

subs are a matter of flavor, pound for pound a high xmax 12” seems to be a good middle ground. Read carefully, and make sure to understand that power isn’t what matters it’s the displaced air. A 13w3 moves the same air as a w6 by calc, and requires much less juice to move as it is way more sensitive. Also note a properly implemented sub puts out way more than jamming a huge cone and a lot of power in (ignoring consideration for the wave to benefit from cabin gain and the time needed for the wave to form).

edit - not being an asshole or know it all. just like you wouldn’t go to the doctor to get your taxes done, I would advise curious minds to go to diymobileaudio where other serious enthusiasts document builds and share ideas. The same reason you don’t ask about your 4Runner in a Facebook car group, but rather go to a site full of knowledge on the matter.

i did not invent the science, just took many years studying and implementing it.

 

That's a healthy budget you have to work with, here are some options I'd personally go with if I had your budget:

1. If you want to stay with a passive setup, I'd ditch the VX600 in favor of something like the Non-DSP Helix M FOUR. I would bridge the M FOUR to the Morel comps and not even run rear fill (or stock rear fill if you want to be nice to your rear passengers). For the price of JL stealthbox I personally would look into other options, like fiberglassing my own (or having a local shop do it) 1/2 FT3 enclosure with a Hertz MPS or Audiomobile Evo. I'd mate the sub with a Helix M ONE.
2. An upgrade from option 1: I'd run a 2 way active setup with Audiofrog GS690 and some widebands, like AF GS25 or HAT Unity U2 and power those off the DSP version of the Helix M SIX (GS690 bridged). The reason I'd go with the widebands instead of a standard small format tweeter is our dash speaker location isn't the most desirable, causing some harshness/boosting around 1khz-2.4khz. The widebands lessen this effect to a small degree.
3. An upgrade from option 2: run the widebands in some pods (e.g. Valicar pods supposedly mate well with GS25s, or diy some PVC caps like I did) and mount those a bit more on-axis.
4. An upgrade from option 3: fabricate something in your a-pillars or sail panels.

Of course these are just some suggestions, a more experienced tuner/installer might be able to make the stock dash location sound good but I was not successful. If you do attempt to tackle a 2 or 3 way active setup yourself, don't forget a decent calibration mic like the UMIK 1. And I'll assume you'll be deadening (at a minimum) the doors.

 

Agreed!!!

 

Biggest lesson I ever learned:

Money and parts are no match for the proper methods.

 

I appreciate the reply here. I'll looking into wide bands up front per option 2. And probably ditch the hatch speakers.

Only reason I like the JL audio stealth box is it allows maximum room for camping stuff. Otherwise I would absolutely get a box.

Wouldn't an amp with DSP effectively be an 'active system'?

 

I'll definitively be asking int he other forum, thank you.

What about the Audiofrog GB25?

Edit:
The GS has a higher frequency and would get better highs 200 - 20k Hz instead of the GB having a max response of 16k, right?

 

They are different speakers altogether.

the GB25 is a dedicated midrange, whereas the gs25 is a full range speaker which can be dropped in the factory location (and has tabs for seamless install).

the issue is that with the gb25 you will need tweeter provision (and to put them on axis to avoid a plethora of issues). With the GS25, it will be a strong performer and keeps the front stage a bit simpler. Also, the roll off of the highs occurring naturally help attenuate all the reflections and beaming.

budget aside, a true 3-way is the move. I have resolved that the factory grille cover is quite oversized compared to the 2.5” nominal opening for the mid. You can offset a tweeter Mount and leave the mids firing in the dash. GB10 and GB25 would be the perfect solution, however to really get the benefits you are talking all dedicated speaker runs, high level 6 and amplification, etc…my build has roughly 250 feet of wire run, this is 3-way front and rear speakers being tapped off the factory harnesses. You will be hard pressed to find many good 6-channel options, lending toward either a 2-way front or going 8 channels full out. This can be accomplished by running the rear speakers directly off the HU and bypassing processing (leaving 8 channels at the dsp still) because again, rear speakers should be the perfume of the system rather than noticeable and attention drawing (So no need for EQ, just low power and keep the detail out of them by crossing them with a low pass).

Edit: the one thing I had to surrender to, what the fact that car environments aren’t ideal. In contrast, there are so many imperfections and ambient noises that spending the most doesn’t really pan out. I have run many amps, many sets of K2 woofer this, class A/B that, .001THD so on and so forth….

end of the day, less is always more and mid level gear gives virtually the same result. The gs25 and a solid 6x9 on real tuning will blow your mind, a single sealed 10 time aligned and equalized with enough headroom for box rise will wow you.

 

It can be, depending on how you wire your front speakers. The Morel Tempo components you referenced come with passive crossovers, so if you used those then it would nullify most of the tuning options that are made available by a DSP. You can ditch the included passive crossovers and run Morel Tempos active, but at that price point you're better off with any of the combination of AF GS & GB products referenced above.

I love @LadeDruck's recommendation for an all GB series 3way, you just gotta commit to some non-OEM mounting solutions for the tweeter (a-pillar/sail panel fabrication or a pod mounted close to the mid)

 

This is what I did and used a 6 channel to do it.

Kenwood DMX 10.1 head unit.
Maestro for Integration
Alpine 6 channel amp
Alpine X series components 6x9 up front, tweeter where stock was.
Alpine R series 6.5 for the rest (Mid/Hatch).

All sounds fantastic and has plenty of mid bass. I have done the stealth boxes before and just not quite the same as a real box so I skipped it since i needed the space for overlanding anyway. If I do add a sub ill add another amp for it, though the Alpine can be run a a 5 channel.

Most were surprised I went with just a 6 channel, but since i don't have a sub it works just fine. The lows are very impressive for just 6x9's and 6.5's.

 

There is one option I have thought of:

so, those deep in the audio world know of parts express. They offer the Epique 7” woofer, which with some ingenuity could be placed in the hatch as subs. The cone area X excursion comes out to be just shy of a 10w3 in performance for the pair. With a proper dealing and deadening of the hatch, these should prove worthy solutions for those looking to save all the factory interior space.

 

If it’s two ohm stable prob run two 4 ohm per channel. I usually run 1/4 ohm stable amps.

 

This is foolish.

If you look at impedence, you have to understand rise and losses. I won’t bore anyone with my speech, look up Andy wehrmeyer (founder of audiofrog) Steve mantz (one of the most prolific amplifier designers and electrical engineer) and the true electrical consequences/benefits of low loads. There is such a little gained by going low…. To be twice as loud as 500w rms, one has to square the number 4 times. This means 8000w to gain 10db (audibly double). So an extra couple of watts isn’t worth the challenges and pitfalls, and again musically amplifiers average a few watts of output (only way it’s a tail of the tape is in spl where every .1 db counts).

the short of it: make up for lower power with larger enclosures/infinite baffle designs/transmission line enclosures/4th order boxes for rear deck fire/etc.

edit: look up group delay, the best results are ALWAYS achieved with the fewest speakers and possible.

 

You have to pull the power out of the amp by drawing more current.

 

I’m from the 90’s nothing you could show me that I would give a f$&@ about.

 

Do tell how that works for you with regulated power supplies?

ALL:

the idea of low impedence came from “cheater amps” of the 80s and 90s. The idea was an amplifier rated at 50w @ 4ohms qualifies in one class, but can throw down when wired to 1 or lower.

anymore, there is ZERO reason to run below 2 ohms nominal. If you look at damping, current, heat, and transient spikes 1 ohms is the dumbest thing you can do. Today amplifiers make 10x to their forefathers, and do so within a third of the footprint.


And AGAIN:

Power doesn’t mean anything, i can make you deaf with a few watts. It’s all in the system design. I hit 135db on a w6 h.o. Box on 700 watts… what gives?

this coming from someone who worked in the business as an installer on and off since 2010, who has their engineering degree and works in industry selling automation to the steel industry modern day. This ain’t amateur hour and everyone can do what blows their hair back, but what I am telling you is the empirical science of a proper system.

believe what you wish.

 

Apparently that includes a book, because you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.

 

I like this guy

 

which speaker would you go with for the rears?

 

Dude I don’t gain anything from sharing this stuff

it took thousands of hours, 10s of thousands of dollars, and years of my life to understand.

I don’t mean to sound frustrated, but I’m literally telling dude the engineering level process of how the stuff works and it’s met with “meh more powahhhh”

 

I wouldn’t.

So rear fill is really misunderstood. Think of it as the Samsung TV from a few years back with the lighting behind it to “enhance” the experience. in design, it wasn’t meant to be watched or even noticed. The idea was it would blend in the peripheral to help extend the viewers perceived panorama.

rear speakers only need a few watts, and done so when crossed over at a frequency that still permits uniform dispersion. Look on audiofrogs website and you will see a chart that represents when beaming should be expected to occur. A 6” speaker can be played below 1k without the listener being able to directionally identify the driver (something tweeters cannot do by default at high frequency, which is why we put them on axis).

so in the end, the idea is to allow the brain to register sound all around, but voice/treble is solely in the front stage as to not affect a “concert effect”

concert effect = 2 channel stereo w/ a forward stage. Reflections and all (yada yada) are not a science per se, but rather the art mastered by tuners since EVERY application needs different equalization

 

Ok a test:
Running four dual voice coil, JL 6 ohm subs isobaric (push pull configuration, pallaritys reversed)
And two more in a box. All bridged 50 watts x 2
What’s the impedance?

 

My mind is getting pretty blown right now.

So I could just leave all the rears attached to the HU and Amp the front soundstage and rear sub only?

 

All:

meh got me, I guess myself and Andy and Steve were wrong, I knew in talking to Steve all these years he was an idiot and all the prototypes he sold me were really made by elves in a workshop.

disregard my advice, and trust this sage.

my exit.

 

Ahh my man, you hit the snafu.

time alignment is EVERYTHING. Can’t do that if it isn’t in the signal path.

I can put you in touch with a guy who can hook you up on audiofrog amps, I get nothing from it other than he’s a friend who gives me things at cost to sing his praises. Those 4 channel amps are solid.

otherwise the xd800/8v2 has been cleared out due to discontinuation, 700 bucks.