Toyota Pricing WOW!!

Every industry is dirty, produces toxic wastes, and “emissions”.

All this hand wringing about emissions and where they are produced, therefore concluding that EVs aren’t so great…

Local emissions matter too. Ask the folks who live in LA, Chicago, NYC, Salt Lake City, and many other communities. Even national parks are plagued with poor air quality. ICE vehicles and diesels are major contributors.

 

The definition below says nothing about a vehicle much less specifying whether or not it's being driven. The point everyone is trying to make is that the terminology that was created primarily for marketing purposes, does not actually mean EVs are good for the environment. Maybe better in many ways, but to ignore the simple fact that emission are generated during the lifecycle of an EV is just silly. And let's be clear, that is the actual argument being made here; however, you have chosen to ignore that and continue to claim that the definition of word emissions can only possibly be interpreted as something that occurs when a vehicle is being driven.


e·mis·sion
/əˈmiSH(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce

noun
plural noun: emissions

1. the production and discharge of something, especially gas or radiation.
   "the effects of lead emission on health"

 

Aside from the mental gymnastics some are doing, the whole point has been that EV's are better for the environment and are more efficient. Period.

 

Yes, we agree on this!

But, some are trying to argue that they are truly "zero emission" vehicles when it's not true. As new, they create more pollution than an ICE to produce. Over the lifetime, they more than make up for it (some more than others depending on how energy is produced). But, they still require energy that is generally produced in a way that creates emissions.

And, they have limitations that make them unappealing to some, including myself. That doesn't mean I'm against EV's. I don't think anyone here really is. People just want options.

A plug in hybrid 4Runner would be extremely appealing to me. But, full electric is a no-go until things get better.

Edit:. And, what you're calling "mental gymnastics" is what I would call "looking at the whole picture".

 

It seems to work better if you open the door windows first. And, don't open the rear window until you're moving.

 

I would argue that if that were truly the point you've been trying to make, it wouldn't have been necessary to ask the group to learn the definition of "emissions". It seems to me that the point you've actually been trying to make is as follows: Since an EV doesn't generate emissions while driving it, the term "zero emissions" is completely accurate and no consideration should be given to the fact that emissions are, in fact, generated throughout the life of an EV.

 

I guess everyone has their own way of defining things. Hell, we have people in this country who can't even define what a woman is!

 

I'm pretty liberal when it comes to a lot of things but some the stuff going on in the world right now is just so over the top, it's nuts.

 

And what happens to the power grids with all these EV vehicles . We have already had 2 brownouts here and this is the first week of summer. 7pm last saturday on a 100 degree day and power goes out .
When I lived in Texas we had rolling brownouts all the time. Not enough Electricity now,so lets throw millions of high electric demand cars at it and see if we can collapse the whole system.
https://www.cnet.com/home/energy-an...be-coming-to-your-state-heres-how-to-prepare/

 

That’s why we need to get more solar on homes, we need to use these roofs we have kicking around. I would to have loved to see an integrated solar panel on our PHV, think about how many cars just sit in the sun all day. If we could harness the power of the sun for like 1 day, it would power the earth for like a year.

Now, the waste of the dead solar panels down the road becomes the next factor

 

A drive to increase profits is irrelevant to government limiting growth. Everyone wants to improve profits.

If government said my industry couldn't grow, I would pivot to a new growth area. This isn't hard.

 

In the economy we are living in, as good as that sounds, it’s not always feasible. Tons of businesses closing at the moment.

 

You should feel privileged that you can endure a brown out or power outage in an effort for sustainability.

I am sure the Chinese and Indians would gladly take a minor power outage to help the climate.

Plus your conservation allows those more important than you to fly around in private jets explaining these benefits.

This transition is really a win/win.

 

This thread(friendly discussion) is all over the place. Back on the pricing subject.lol What does everyone think of Toyotas new EV suv. The BZ4X is starting at $42k. Kind of fugly with it's black plastic fenders IMO.
https://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/bz4x/

I think Toyota ,more then any other manufacturer had/has it right with their Hybrid lineup and fully expect the 6th Gen 4Runner to be offered in a Hybrid. A vehicle that charges it's own battery seems like the way to go to save gas and lesson it's carbon footprint and not have the worry of the where the next charging station is so you can sit there and wait for it to charge.

Something like 80% of lithium batteries are made in Asia with China controlling over 50% is what's partly driving this EV onslaught .Samsung,Sony and Panasonic are the big 3 in Lithium batteries. It's all about the money,they could care less about the environment and have the record to prove it. We do have one Lithium mine in the USA and I don't think any lithium battery manufacturers, maybe Elon does.
https://www.onecharge.biz/blog/u-s-role-in-global-lithium-battery-manufacturing/#:~:text=China dominates the battery market,reserves are located in Bolivia.)

 

Ironically from what I read Tesla has not been invited to any meetings in EVs because they are not unionized.

But to your point some governments do issue vehicles to its citizens. Iran as an example had its own car company at one time. Perhaps that is a good idea as well. We could all drive simplistic government mandated vehicles with regulated ranges etal.

This would certainly give us all less to debate. It could be like the days of the Model T you can have any color you want as long as it’s black.

 

Is that the car that Kimmel just cracked a joke about the wheels falling offf?

 

There’s more to it than that. It’s the design can’t be copied from another manufacturer?

 

It's a tad better than the fugly Hyundai Ionic a coworker of mine drives.

 

Ever notice how the “scientists” have models for everything? Pandemics, economics, weather, etc…

I wonder why we’ve never seen one for high electric demand vehicles. Shouldn’t that be front and center? I wanna see the end result of a model where everyone on the planet that has an ICE vehicle has an EV instead. Publish the results. Show us the infrastructure we will need and the dollar cost per family. I’d settle for a US model only for starters. And show us where we’ll all end up.

And then we can decide if we think it’s worth it (lol). Printing money will only go so far. But run the model with $10 trillion printed. Then $20 trillion printed. Do we need to go to $100 trillion?

An interesting thing to me is how so much of this hinges on people’s beliefs about climate change (on one hand) vs government rule by fiat (on the other). Might be two sides of the same coin.

But I’m kind of an idiot. I don’t know much about this stuff.

 

Generator style hybrid. We had it. The Chevy Volt.
From Wikipedia:
“The Volt operates as a pure battery electric vehicle until its battery capacity drops to a predetermined threshold from full charge. From there, its internal combustion engine powers an electric generator to extend the vehicle's range as needed.”
Too bad production has ended.

 

We are already at China’s mercy for antibiotics and we were for ppe not too long ago either. Sadly I see our country putting us at the same risks again.

We should adhere to the old adage “burned once not twice”

Germany had plenty of red flags raised early on about fuel and Russia but turned a blind eye.

Hopefully we don’t make the same mistake.

You don’t invest in just one stock for a 401k so why would you do it for an energy supplier for a whole country.

 

But that's the thing, though. I don't think anyone is trying to argue that. This is why we have to keep arguing about the definition of emissions. Nobody has ever said that electric cars have zero negative impact on the environment.

 

That's not the point I was arguing. It never was.

Just in case you forgot:

I said:

Then you said:

So, I said this:

Which I still stand by.

Not once did I ever say that they weren't better for the environment than ICE vehicles. And, not once did I ever accuse anyone of saying they had no environmental impact.

 

I’m carbon neutral, I own trees.

 

I don't think it's a buzzword. My wife's '14 Outback has "PZEV" in big letters across the back (for Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle). According to the interwebs, the terms (SULEV, PZEV, and ZEV) go back to early (1990?) CARB requirements.

Not trying to be smart, just wanted everyone to know that it's actually an official term that came out before EVs were mass produced. The emissions part is referring to tailpipe emissions.

 

I would accept ZTEV.

 

@TRDLE Is a troll. I tried to have this conversation via DM. He does nothing but straw man.

like mentioned by you. EV is in it’s infancy. It’s not practical for long drives, or trucking (at the moment). I can’t personally use it because I drive too much and too far.

There was a news piece, I believe last week, that tried to use a rented EV for a long trip. They missed appointments and spent more time charging than sleeping. It’s just not there yet. I would love a Tesla! My buddy has one and really likes it. The tech is just not advanced enough for us that live in rural areas.

 

"Germany had plenty of red flags raised early on about fuel and Russia but turned a blind eye."

I believe Trump warned Germany about this back in 2018.