Gen5 Audio Upgrade - design input sought

Hello,

A few months ago I upgraded the sound system in my 2021 Trail. The results were decent but I think I can do better. I have read many helpful threads on this forum (and a few others) and wanted to both thank you for what I've learned so far and solicit input on further changes I'm about to make.

What I did:

• Sound deadener on front and passenger doors
• Kicker KS series speakers in dash (coax), front door(triax), and pass door(coax) positions
• Kicker Key 200.4 amplifier (ran EQ/delay setup function and confirmed improvement)
• Made my own wiring harness "T" using oem head unit speaker level outputs as amp inputs

Results:

• Nice volume and clarity compared to stock
• Decent staging/imaging for front seat but not great
• Still mud coming from the rear. WTF does oem head unit send to rear channel anyway?
• Can be boomy for some songs depending on recording mix

Here is the current (installed) design: (link to full size diagram)


Current design notes:

• Using the passive external crossovers that came with the KS speakers
• Disconnected the tweeter feed to front door position speakers for use as mids only (was way too bright before)
• Using one amp channel for front door and dash speakers (think this is where my staging/imaging problem lies)
• Using the other amp channel for pass and hatch speakers\
• Used a wiring harness adaptor (Red Wolf) at dash speakers to preserve oem series wiring

Here is the proposed (planned) design for comment: (link to full size diagram)


Proposed design notes:

• Uses one amp channel for dash speakers, the other for front door speakers
• Amp will be run in bi-amp mode with oem head unit powering rear speakers
• Dash and door speakers are not component set, front are coax doors are triax

Questions for comment:

• Should passive crossovers that came with speakers still be used? To my thinking, they need to be to filter the signals going to tweeters and main cone. I know true bi-amped with component speakers could do away with crossovers and let the amp/DSP set the EQ to each speaker
• Should I disconnect the tweeter feed at the front door speakers to use them as mids only or continue to use as triax?
• Am aware I'll need to run new wires to either dash or front door speakers. Any reason not to use the existing feed for one pair so long as I don't break the series?

Has anyone here been through this same process/design?

For clarification, I'm not an audiofile nut . . . I just know I can get some better sound than what came with the truck.

Thanks in advance for your time and consideration.

Jason

 

1. You should be using component speakers up front, not coax/triax.

2. Key in Bi-Amp mode, no passive crossovers are meant to be used.

3. Key processing doesn’t correct the Toyota radio’s output, which needs a lot of signal processing because there is attenuation and time alignment on the output of the factory radio that needs to be corrected for best results. You need something that can make these corrections before crossovers, EQ, and any channel summing (for sub) is applied.

It looks to me like Kicker makes these adjustments via acoustical measurement and for this reason the Kicker Key is not the right product for newer Toyota radios IMO.

 

You're illustration skills are great but for me a radio is just a radio - I've always found the audio in my 2019 4runner far superior to what my F150 (and previous Ford products) was, so I'm good....

 

Thanks for the input.

These are already purchased and installed and I'd like to use them.

Think I should disconn the lead to the tweeters at the door position?

Understood if I were using components. Given that I am not, should I leave them to direct the signal to the appropriate drivers in the coax/triax or remote the crossovers and disconn the lead to the tweeters?

You're out of my depth here, but thank you.

Jason

 

I hear you. I spend a lot time doing long road trips in this truck and would like an improvement.

As for the illustration skills . . . I was procrastinating at work which lead me to spend far more time into it than was actually necessary ;-0

Thanks,
Jason

 

I occasionally have need to create schematics for various electrical projects but I pretty much suck at doing diagrams - yours look good and easy to understand.

I hear you on the road trip entertainment - I finally broke down and allowed myself a subscription to Sirius XM ($6 a month) so I can listen to my “oldies” (cause I’m an “oldie” ) on my trips to TN & back.

 

This is why you are seeking advice right? Bottom line, don’t be so stubborn about your “bird in hand” and get the correct stuff so you aren’t scrambling around trying to salvage the situation by disconnecting components on your wide band speakers.

Using Kicker Key is your call, but at least install the right speakers because sticking with your plan just means you have either overlapping frequencies, a hole in the frequency response, or both.

 

I'm old enough that I've learned . . . when my knee jerk reaction is to debate or be defensive, perhaps I should look again.

Will look into a component set for front door position and bi-amp those with the Kicker.

If that doesn't do it for me, then I'll consider a different DSP.

Thanks for your input.

Jason

 

Cudos to you Jason - good form!

 

Update . . . ordered a set of Focal IS690 for the front and an Audio Control LC7.

Will get busy installing next weekend.

Jason

 

Where do you guys run the power wire through the firewall into the vehicle?

 

Nice! Is that 2 Gauge cable? Did you also replace ground wire?

 

That’s one 4AWG and one 8AWG going in, and a 8AWG ground coming back out to the factory ground for the amp mounted under the passenger seat. The 4AWG continues to the rear passenger seat for the subwoofer amplifier, which is grounded in the trough behind the rear seats.

 

Did you make that plate holding the amp or did you purchase it?

 

I made it. It’s not hard if you take your time.

 

Update . . .

I installed the Focal ISTOY 690 in the front door and dash positions. Nice kit installation-wise. The construction of the drivers seems rather pedestrian. Coated (paper?) cones, plastic bodies, normal foam surrounds. Hopefully they spent the money on tuning and testing the product and not flash appearance. Either that or I paid twice as much for a set of speakers with pre-made bracketry.

I re-ran the setup procedure (auto time and eq tune) on the Kicker Key again, reset gains, and did some listening.

While I was working on the car project, I also decided to disconnect the rear hatch speakers. 10 minute job. Wanted to remove muddy sound and remove annoyance for my dog who takes long road trips back there frequently.

Observations:

• front imaging is much more clear and precise
• volume before distortion comparable (clean up to pretty high listening level)
• sound can still be boomy and missing mid range for some songs

Conclusions:

• signal EQ coming out of head unit is low quality
• EQ is variable based on volume (expected . . . I'm learning)
• Kicker Key does a nice job of time alignment based on A/B listening tests
• I won't be able to tolerate the boomy sound quality

Next steps:

• replace the Kicker Key with an Audio Control D-4.800
• spend time tuning (I used to do sound for bands and lectures and have a decent ear)
• accept that even after doing this it's not going to be amazing (aiming for better than decent)

Will report back dutifully like the geek that I am after performing next steps.

Jason

 

Follow up . . .

Have installed and tuned the D-4.800 and spent the last week tuning it to get it where I like it.

It sounds fantastic.

I learned much along the way.

The advice given to clean up the input signal and get the timing/delays right was right on.

When I got to final stages of tuning, I put away my engineer brain and reliance on visual RTA curves and tweaked with ears and bunch of favorite tracks. That's the goal right? To love to listen while I drive.

I was able to address the bass rolloff with the Accu-Bass feature. I've read others have not been pleased with it, but I got it to work nicely. I used a mic and RTA to find the point where bass was attenuated and messed with the cut-in point and boost amount until I got it it to sound uniform across the volume range.

Lots of work but I got to keep the head unit.

Thanks all for your help and input.

Jason

 

It does require a lot of measurement, effort, and a good DSP but good sound from this factory radio is possible thanks to the much more advanced processors and consumer measurement tools available today. Accu-Bass is a really great product when you understand how to set it up.

I’m happy to see your results are satisfactory.

 

Not to throw a monkey wrench into your already, well-underway project, but I am curious if you checked out OEM Audio+’s solution?

I have owned it previously in a 2016 4Runner, which I don’t own any longer, and I have another one ordered for my new ‘22 SR5P.

I was really pleased first time around and am eager to get the new ride upgraded.

 

My issue with OEM+ and Tacotunes is that you have no control over the DSP, it’s inflexible for future upgrades/alterations, and the quality of the speakers is mediocre at best for aftermarket. All it amounts to is someone else’s take on your factory premium stereo and it’s not a real quality upgrade.

It’s a product meant for a specific kind of customer, but mostly the only people I see getting these systems say plug and play is their priority, not killer audio.

 

Using Kicker Key is your call, but at Speed Test least install the right speakers because sticking with your plan just means you have either overlapping frequencies, a hole in the frequency response, or both.

 

Already done.

See the other posts in the thread. Thanks.

Jason

 

I think his cat was stomping his KB while he was away or something because that’s verbatim sans what looks like autocorrect what I’d said much earlier.

 

Just following up on this thread from almost 2.5 years ago... Have you still been happy with this setup? Any changes? I am looking to do something similar, but considering adding a sub (looking at Stealthbox, but continuously talking myself out of the price).

A couple things:
1) I see you mentioned in a previous post you got an AudioControl LC7, but then got the D-4.800. Did you only get the D-4.800 since it offers DSP?

2) The D-4.800 puts out 125 watts RMS at 4 ohms. The speakers you have are rated a lot less. I'm assuming you just have the gains set lower to compensate (once everything was dialed in with the D-4.800).

3) Is the D-4.800 adequate enough to deal with the factory Toyota head unit issues (bass roll-off, all pass filters, etc...)

4) Since he D-4.800 is a 4-channel amp, I'm assuming I would need another DSP or DSP/Amp for a sub in order to power it. Unless there is a way to utilize the DSP off of this 4-channel amp to accomplish this.

Thank you!

 

Crazy he did all that work when a replacement head unit would have been so much easier and sound so much better. But cool he got it to work.

I had a Stealth box in my old Expedition and its was okay, but for the price you can get a much better sub/box. Though it is nice to save space.

All i did in my 4R was replace the head unit, added a 6 channel amp and upgraded all the speakers. Sounds fantastic and the components up front actually give me some good low range.

 

Answers:

1) I got it for the DSP, yes.

2) I set the gains as one normally would . . . for clean sound. Wasn't aware of any gross power mismatch.

3) For all the tools the unit offers to compensate for the poor signal coming from the head unit, it still could not overcome them. So, in retrospect it was not an adequate solution. An adequate solution would have been to replace the head unit as the poster above mentioned. Expensive lesson in both time and money.

4) I am using a JBL powered sub rather than another amp to cover the fifth channel. I like it so muct I put one in my other truck with good results.

Bottom line: The whole exercise was folly. Sound is not up to par and I firmly believe it's due to poor quality signal from the HU.

Haven't been inclined to do anything further about it so I just live with it.

I hope you wanted a candid opinion . . . because you got one.

Jason

 

I appreciate it, Thanks!

 

I’ve tried about everything, Audison BIT, Audio Control DM, Audio Control LC2i Pro —> JL TwK/Audio Control DM-608, and none of them clean up the factory radio like the JL FiX.

Maybe Helix can do it IDK, but my recommendation since the beginning of time is to use a FiX 82/86 if you want to keep the factory radio. It sounds best if you can utilize the TOSLINK output.

 

I appreciate it. I will look into the JL FiX. I don't mind spending some money to keep the factory radio. Thank you!